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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • jeff ylitalo
    Indeed! ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought, To:
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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      Indeed!

      --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
      From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
      Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,
      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 2:09 PM


      Photos before the day is out, I promise.
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    • Mike Diamond
      Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album. ... letter ... counterclash ... kind. ... late ... to ... a ... it ... Diamond
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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        Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
        letter
        > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
        > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
        > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
        > rest of the design.
        >
        > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
        counterclash
        > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
        > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
        >
        > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
        kind.
        > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
        > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
        > form
        > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
        late
        > die
        > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used
        to
        > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through
        a
        > thin
        > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
        > struck
        > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
        it
        > over.
        > >
        > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
        > handsomely,
        > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
        > >
        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        Diamond"
        > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
        > > >
        > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
        > > >
        > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
        > > counterclash...who
        > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
        > thinner
        > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
        > see
        > > > about that.
        > > >
        > > > Wish me luck.
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters -- but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs of authenticity
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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          I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters --
          but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
          of authenticity include the following:

          1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
          of die deterioration as the normal letters.

          2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in the
          tiny spaces between the normal letters.

          3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
          struck area.

          Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration, there
          must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
          escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
          leaving the Mint?

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
          > letter
          > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
          > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
          > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
          the
          > > rest of the design.
          > >
          > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
          > counterclash
          > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
          > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
          > >
          > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
          > >
          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
          Diamond"
          > > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
          > kind.
          > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
          > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
          any
          > > form
          > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
          > late
          > > die
          > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
          used
          > to
          > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
          through
          > a
          > > thin
          > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
          > > struck
          > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
          > it
          > > over.
          > > >
          > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
          > > handsomely,
          > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
          > > >
          > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
          > Diamond"
          > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
          > > > >
          > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          ViewItem&item=320288437359
          > > > >
          > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
          > > > counterclash...who
          > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
          > > thinner
          > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
          and
          > > see
          > > > > about that.
          > > > >
          > > > > Wish me luck.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jylitalo
          My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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            My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
            letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
            hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
            RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
            counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
            to eliminate it as a fake.

            This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
            deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

            From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
            Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
            case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
            quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
            began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
            THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
            might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
            suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

            I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

            ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
            quarters --
            > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
            > of authenticity include the following:
            >
            > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
            > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
            >
            > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
            the
            > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
            >
            > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
            > struck area.
            >
            > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
            there
            > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
            > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
            > leaving the Mint?
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            Diamond"
            > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
            > > letter
            > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
            > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
            > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
            > the
            > > > rest of the design.
            > > >
            > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
            > > counterclash
            > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
            distinct
            > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
            > > >
            > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
            > > >
            > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            > Diamond"
            > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
            > > kind.
            > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
            > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
            > any
            > > > form
            > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
            a
            > > late
            > > > die
            > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
            > used
            > > to
            > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
            > through
            > > a
            > > > thin
            > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
            grease-
            > > > struck
            > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
            chew
            > > it
            > > > over.
            > > > >
            > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
            > > > handsomely,
            > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
            Errorland.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            > > Diamond"
            > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            > ViewItem&item=320288437359
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
            > > > > counterclash...who
            > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
            > > > thinner
            > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
            > and
            > > > see
            > > > > > about that.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Wish me luck.
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Mike Diamond
            ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
              <jylitalo@...> wrote:
              >
              > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
              > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

              Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
              that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
              around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
              areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


              > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
              > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
              > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
              help
              > to eliminate it as a fake.
              >
              > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
              to
              > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

              Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
              die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

              > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
              > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
              a
              > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
              > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
              > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
              I
              > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
              > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
              > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
              >
              > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

              I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
              can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
              counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
            • Mike Diamond
              It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                > >
                > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                DDD.
                >
                > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                >
                >
                > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                > help
                > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                > >
                > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                started
                > to
                > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                >
                > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                the
                > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                >
                > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                saw
                > a
                > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                quarters.
                > I
                > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                which
                > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                > >
                > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                >
                > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                >
              • innff@aol.com
                Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
                   
                  BJ
                   
                  In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

                  It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                  can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                  see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                  --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                  > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                  > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                  DDD.
                  >
                  > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                  > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                  > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                  > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                  >
                  >
                  > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                  > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                  > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                  > help
                  > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                  > >
                  > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                  started
                  > to
                  > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                  >
                  > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                  the
                  > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                  >
                  > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                  > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                  saw
                  > a
                  > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                  > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                  > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                  quarters.
                  > I
                  > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                  which
                  > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                  > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                  > >
                  > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                  >
                  > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                  > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                  > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                  >




                • Mike Diamond
                  I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
                    and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
                    any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
                    Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
                    counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
                    account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
                    would
                    > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
                    the time
                    > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
                    something not
                    > easily missed.
                  • Marc
                    Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                      capped die something to me.

                      The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                      stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                      those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                      above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                      at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                      is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                      the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                      responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                      letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                      As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                      capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                      the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                      displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                      stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                      such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                      My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                      My 2 cents worth....
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                        I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                        die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                        its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                        quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                        a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                        strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                        never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                        The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                        incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                        could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                        appearance in the surrounding area.

                        The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                        the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                        letters were present in the die face.

                        I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                        helpful.

                        I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                        shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                        support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                        accompanied by other die damage.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                        <numismistake@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                        > capped die something to me.
                        >
                        > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                        > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                        > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                        tripled
                        > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                        > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                        cap
                        > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                        > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                        be
                        > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                        > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                        design.
                        >
                        > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                        thru
                        > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                        > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                        > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                        > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                        > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                        >
                        > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                        >
                        > My 2 cents worth....
                        >
                      • jeff ylitalo
                        If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                          If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                           
                          While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                           
                          Thanks.

                        • Mike Diamond
                          There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                            There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                            shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                            enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                            opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                            The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                            counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                            could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                            just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                            and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                            the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                            struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                            unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                            counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                            1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                            the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                            001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                            struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                            the other counterclashes.

                            There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                            hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                            <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                            occurs?
                            >  
                            > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                            also be nice.
                            >  
                            > Thanks.
                            >
                          • jeff ylitalo
                            I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                               
                              Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                               
                              On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                              From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                              Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                              To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                              shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                              enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                              opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                              The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                              counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                              could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                              just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                              and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                              the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                              struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                              unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                              counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                              1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                              the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                              001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                              struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                              the other counterclashes.

                              There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                              hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                              --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                              <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                              occurs?
                              >  
                              > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                              also be nice.
                              >  
                              > Thanks.
                              >


                            • Mike Diamond
                              Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                                coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                authenticity.

                                I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                is found. I'd like to see that too.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                                > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                                > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                                > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                show
                                > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                                > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                >
                                > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                through
                                > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                >
                                > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                in
                                > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                extra
                                > letters were present in the die face.
                                >
                                > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                                > helpful.
                                >
                                > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                additional
                                > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                > accompanied by other die damage.
                              • Mike Diamond
                                With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                  With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                                  to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                                  detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                                  a
                                  > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                  > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                  > authenticity.
                                  >
                                  > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                  > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                                  >
                                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  > <mdia1@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                                  capped
                                  > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                                  in
                                  > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                                  Delaware
                                  > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                  > show
                                  > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                  > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                                  there's
                                  > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                  > >
                                  > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                  > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                  > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                  > through
                                  > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                  > >
                                  > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                  > in
                                  > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                  > extra
                                  > > letters were present in the die face.
                                  > >
                                  > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                                  always
                                  > > helpful.
                                  > >
                                  > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                  > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                  > additional
                                  > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                  > > accompanied by other die damage.
                                  >
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