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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low relief). That would be
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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      Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter
      is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
      relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
      itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
      rest of the design.

      This is really exciting, as it will represent the first counterclash
      on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
      encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?

      Photos before the day is out, I promise.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what kind.
      > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
      > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
      form
      > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a late
      die
      > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used to
      > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through a
      thin
      > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
      struck
      > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew it
      over.
      >
      > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
      handsomely,
      > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
      > >
      > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
      > >
      > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
      > counterclash...who
      > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
      thinner
      > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
      see
      > > about that.
      > >
      > > Wish me luck.
      > >
      >
    • jeff ylitalo
      Indeed! ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought, To:
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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        Indeed!

        --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
        From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,
        To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 2:09 PM


        Photos before the day is out, I promise.
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      • Mike Diamond
        Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album. ... letter ... counterclash ... kind. ... late ... to ... a ... it ... Diamond
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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          Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
          letter
          > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
          > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
          > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
          > rest of the design.
          >
          > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
          counterclash
          > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
          > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
          >
          > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
          kind.
          > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
          > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
          > form
          > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
          late
          > die
          > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used
          to
          > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through
          a
          > thin
          > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
          > struck
          > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
          it
          > over.
          > >
          > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
          > handsomely,
          > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
          > >
          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
          Diamond"
          > > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
          > > >
          > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
          > > >
          > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
          > > counterclash...who
          > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
          > thinner
          > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
          > see
          > > > about that.
          > > >
          > > > Wish me luck.
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Mike Diamond
          I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters -- but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs of authenticity
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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            I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters --
            but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
            of authenticity include the following:

            1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
            of die deterioration as the normal letters.

            2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in the
            tiny spaces between the normal letters.

            3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
            struck area.

            Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration, there
            must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
            escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
            leaving the Mint?

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
            > letter
            > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
            > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
            > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
            the
            > > rest of the design.
            > >
            > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
            > counterclash
            > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
            > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
            > >
            > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            Diamond"
            > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
            > kind.
            > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
            > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
            any
            > > form
            > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
            > late
            > > die
            > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
            used
            > to
            > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
            through
            > a
            > > thin
            > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
            > > struck
            > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
            > it
            > > over.
            > > >
            > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
            > > handsomely,
            > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
            > > >
            > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            > Diamond"
            > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
            > > > >
            > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            ViewItem&item=320288437359
            > > > >
            > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
            > > > counterclash...who
            > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
            > > thinner
            > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
            and
            > > see
            > > > > about that.
            > > > >
            > > > > Wish me luck.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • jylitalo
            My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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              My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
              letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
              hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
              RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
              counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
              to eliminate it as a fake.

              This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
              deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

              From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
              Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
              case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
              quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
              began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
              THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
              might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
              suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

              I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

              ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
              quarters --
              > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
              > of authenticity include the following:
              >
              > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
              > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
              >
              > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
              the
              > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
              >
              > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
              > struck area.
              >
              > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
              there
              > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
              > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
              > leaving the Mint?
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              Diamond"
              > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
              > > letter
              > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
              > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
              > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
              > the
              > > > rest of the design.
              > > >
              > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
              > > counterclash
              > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
              distinct
              > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
              > > >
              > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
              > > >
              > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              > Diamond"
              > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
              > > kind.
              > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
              > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
              > any
              > > > form
              > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
              a
              > > late
              > > > die
              > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
              > used
              > > to
              > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
              > through
              > > a
              > > > thin
              > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
              grease-
              > > > struck
              > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
              chew
              > > it
              > > > over.
              > > > >
              > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
              > > > handsomely,
              > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
              Errorland.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              > > Diamond"
              > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
              > ViewItem&item=320288437359
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
              > > > > counterclash...who
              > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
              > > > thinner
              > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
              > and
              > > > see
              > > > > > about that.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Wish me luck.
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Mike Diamond
              ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                >
                > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

                Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


                > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                help
                > to eliminate it as a fake.
                >
                > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
                to
                > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

                Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
                die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

                > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
                a
                > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
                I
                > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
                > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                >
                > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

                I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
              • Mike Diamond
                It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                  can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                  see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                  > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                  > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                  DDD.
                  >
                  > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                  > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                  > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                  > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                  >
                  >
                  > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                  > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                  > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                  > help
                  > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                  > >
                  > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                  started
                  > to
                  > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                  >
                  > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                  the
                  > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                  >
                  > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                  > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                  saw
                  > a
                  > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                  > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                  > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                  quarters.
                  > I
                  > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                  which
                  > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                  > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                  > >
                  > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                  >
                  > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                  > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                  > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                  >
                • innff@aol.com
                  Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
                     
                    BJ
                     
                    In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

                    It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                    can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                    see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                    --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                    > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                    > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                    DDD.
                    >
                    > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                    > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                    > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                    > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                    >
                    >
                    > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                    > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                    > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                    > help
                    > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                    > >
                    > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                    started
                    > to
                    > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                    >
                    > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                    the
                    > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                    >
                    > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                    > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                    saw
                    > a
                    > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                    > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                    > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                    quarters.
                    > I
                    > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                    which
                    > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                    > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                    > >
                    > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                    >
                    > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                    > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                    > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                    >




                  • Mike Diamond
                    I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
                      and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
                      any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
                      Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
                      counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
                      account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
                      would
                      > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
                      the time
                      > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
                      something not
                      > easily missed.
                    • Marc
                      Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                        Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                        capped die something to me.

                        The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                        stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                        those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                        above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                        at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                        is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                        the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                        responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                        letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                        As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                        capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                        the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                        displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                        stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                        such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                        My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                        My 2 cents worth....
                      • Mike Diamond
                        I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                          I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                          die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                          its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                          quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                          a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                          strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                          never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                          The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                          incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                          could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                          appearance in the surrounding area.

                          The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                          the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                          letters were present in the die face.

                          I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                          helpful.

                          I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                          shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                          support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                          accompanied by other die damage.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                          <numismistake@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                          > capped die something to me.
                          >
                          > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                          > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                          > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                          tripled
                          > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                          > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                          cap
                          > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                          > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                          be
                          > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                          > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                          design.
                          >
                          > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                          thru
                          > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                          > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                          > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                          > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                          > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                          >
                          > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                          >
                          > My 2 cents worth....
                          >
                        • jeff ylitalo
                          If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                            If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                             
                            While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                             
                            Thanks.

                          • Mike Diamond
                            There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                              shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                              enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                              opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                              The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                              counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                              could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                              just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                              and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                              the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                              struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                              unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                              counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                              1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                              the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                              001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                              struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                              the other counterclashes.

                              There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                              hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                              <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                              occurs?
                              >  
                              > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                              also be nice.
                              >  
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                            • jeff ylitalo
                              I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                                 
                                Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                                 
                                On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                                Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                                To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                                There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                                shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                                enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                                opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                                The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                                counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                                could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                                just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                                and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                                the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                                struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                                unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                                counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                                1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                                the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                                001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                                struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                                the other counterclashes.

                                There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                                hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                                --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                                <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                                >
                                > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                                occurs?
                                >  
                                > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                                also be nice.
                                >  
                                > Thanks.
                                >


                              • Mike Diamond
                                Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                  Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                                  coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                  spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                  authenticity.

                                  I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                  is found. I'd like to see that too.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                                  > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                                  > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                                  > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                  show
                                  > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                  > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                                  > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                  >
                                  > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                  > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                  > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                  through
                                  > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                  >
                                  > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                  in
                                  > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                  extra
                                  > letters were present in the die face.
                                  >
                                  > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                                  > helpful.
                                  >
                                  > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                  > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                  additional
                                  > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                  > accompanied by other die damage.
                                • Mike Diamond
                                  With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                    With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                                    to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                                    detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                                    a
                                    > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                    > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                    > authenticity.
                                    >
                                    > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                    > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                                    >
                                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                    > <mdia1@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                                    capped
                                    > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                                    in
                                    > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                                    Delaware
                                    > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                    > show
                                    > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                    > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                                    there's
                                    > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                    > >
                                    > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                    > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                    > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                    > through
                                    > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                    > >
                                    > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                    > in
                                    > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                    > extra
                                    > > letters were present in the die face.
                                    > >
                                    > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                                    always
                                    > > helpful.
                                    > >
                                    > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                    > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                    > additional
                                    > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                    > > accompanied by other die damage.
                                    >
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