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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    I have the coin and it s a real error, but I m not sure what kind. CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears simultaneously incuse and
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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      I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what kind.
      CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
      simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any form
      of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a late die
      state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used to
      seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through a thin
      layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-struck
      zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew it over.

      Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off handsomely,
      at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
      >
      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
      >
      > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
      counterclash...who
      > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and thinner
      > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and see
      > about that.
      >
      > Wish me luck.
      >
    • Mike Diamond
      Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low relief). That would be
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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        Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter
        is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
        relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
        itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
        rest of the design.

        This is really exciting, as it will represent the first counterclash
        on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
        encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?

        Photos before the day is out, I promise.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what kind.
        > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
        > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
        form
        > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a late
        die
        > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used to
        > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through a
        thin
        > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
        struck
        > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew it
        over.
        >
        > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
        handsomely,
        > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > >
        > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
        > >
        > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
        > >
        > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
        > counterclash...who
        > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
        thinner
        > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
        see
        > > about that.
        > >
        > > Wish me luck.
        > >
        >
      • jeff ylitalo
        Indeed! ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought, To:
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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          Indeed!

          --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
          From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
          Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,
          To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 2:09 PM


          Photos before the day is out, I promise.
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        • Mike Diamond
          Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album. ... letter ... counterclash ... kind. ... late ... to ... a ... it ... Diamond
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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            Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
            letter
            > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
            > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
            > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
            > rest of the design.
            >
            > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
            counterclash
            > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
            > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
            >
            > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
            kind.
            > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
            > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
            > form
            > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
            late
            > die
            > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used
            to
            > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through
            a
            > thin
            > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
            > struck
            > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
            it
            > over.
            > >
            > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
            > handsomely,
            > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            Diamond"
            > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
            > > >
            > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
            > > >
            > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
            > > counterclash...who
            > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
            > thinner
            > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
            > see
            > > > about that.
            > > >
            > > > Wish me luck.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Mike Diamond
            I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters -- but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs of authenticity
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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              I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters --
              but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
              of authenticity include the following:

              1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
              of die deterioration as the normal letters.

              2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in the
              tiny spaces between the normal letters.

              3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
              struck area.

              Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration, there
              must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
              escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
              leaving the Mint?

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
              > letter
              > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
              > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
              > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
              the
              > > rest of the design.
              > >
              > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
              > counterclash
              > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
              > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
              > >
              > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              Diamond"
              > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
              > kind.
              > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
              > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
              any
              > > form
              > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
              > late
              > > die
              > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
              used
              > to
              > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
              through
              > a
              > > thin
              > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
              > > struck
              > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
              > it
              > > over.
              > > >
              > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
              > > handsomely,
              > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
              > > >
              > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              > Diamond"
              > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
              > > > >
              > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
              ViewItem&item=320288437359
              > > > >
              > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
              > > > counterclash...who
              > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
              > > thinner
              > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
              and
              > > see
              > > > > about that.
              > > > >
              > > > > Wish me luck.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • jylitalo
              My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
                hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
                to eliminate it as a fake.

                This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
                deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

                From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
                case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
                THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
                might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

                I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

                ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
                quarters --
                > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
                > of authenticity include the following:
                >
                > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
                > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
                >
                > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
                the
                > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
                >
                > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
                > struck area.
                >
                > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
                there
                > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
                > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
                > leaving the Mint?
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                > <mdia1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                Diamond"
                > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
                > > letter
                > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
                > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
                > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
                > the
                > > > rest of the design.
                > > >
                > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
                > > counterclash
                > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
                distinct
                > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
                > > >
                > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
                > > >
                > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                > Diamond"
                > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
                > > kind.
                > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
                > any
                > > > form
                > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
                a
                > > late
                > > > die
                > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
                > used
                > > to
                > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
                > through
                > > a
                > > > thin
                > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
                grease-
                > > > struck
                > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
                chew
                > > it
                > > > over.
                > > > >
                > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
                > > > handsomely,
                > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
                Errorland.
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                > > Diamond"
                > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                > ViewItem&item=320288437359
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                > > > > counterclash...who
                > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
                > > > thinner
                > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
                > and
                > > > see
                > > > > > about that.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Wish me luck.
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Mike Diamond
                ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                  <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                  > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

                  Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                  that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                  around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                  areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


                  > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                  > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                  > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                  help
                  > to eliminate it as a fake.
                  >
                  > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
                  to
                  > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

                  Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
                  die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

                  > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                  > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
                  a
                  > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                  > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                  > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
                  I
                  > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
                  > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                  > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                  >
                  > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

                  I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                  can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                  counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                • Mike Diamond
                  It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                    can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                    see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                    > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                    > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                    DDD.
                    >
                    > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                    > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                    > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                    > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                    >
                    >
                    > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                    > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                    > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                    > help
                    > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                    > >
                    > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                    started
                    > to
                    > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                    >
                    > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                    the
                    > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                    >
                    > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                    > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                    saw
                    > a
                    > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                    > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                    > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                    quarters.
                    > I
                    > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                    which
                    > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                    > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                    > >
                    > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                    >
                    > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                    > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                    > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                    >
                  • innff@aol.com
                    Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
                       
                      BJ
                       
                      In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

                      It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                      can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                      see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                      --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                      > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                      > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                      DDD.
                      >
                      > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                      > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                      > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                      > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                      >
                      >
                      > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                      > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                      > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                      > help
                      > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                      > >
                      > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                      started
                      > to
                      > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                      >
                      > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                      the
                      > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                      >
                      > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                      > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                      saw
                      > a
                      > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                      > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                      > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                      quarters.
                      > I
                      > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                      which
                      > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                      > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                      > >
                      > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                      >
                      > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                      > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                      > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                      >




                    • Mike Diamond
                      I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                        I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
                        and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
                        any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
                        Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
                        counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
                        account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
                        would
                        > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
                        the time
                        > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
                        something not
                        > easily missed.
                      • Marc
                        Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                          Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                          capped die something to me.

                          The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                          stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                          those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                          above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                          at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                          is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                          the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                          responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                          letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                          As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                          capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                          the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                          displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                          stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                          such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                          My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                          My 2 cents worth....
                        • Mike Diamond
                          I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                            I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                            die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                            its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                            quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                            a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                            strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                            never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                            The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                            incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                            could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                            appearance in the surrounding area.

                            The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                            the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                            letters were present in the die face.

                            I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                            helpful.

                            I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                            shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                            support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                            accompanied by other die damage.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                            <numismistake@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                            > capped die something to me.
                            >
                            > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                            > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                            > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                            tripled
                            > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                            > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                            cap
                            > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                            > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                            be
                            > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                            > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                            design.
                            >
                            > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                            thru
                            > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                            > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                            > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                            > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                            > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                            >
                            > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                            >
                            > My 2 cents worth....
                            >
                          • jeff ylitalo
                            If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                               
                              While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                               
                              Thanks.

                            • Mike Diamond
                              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                                shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                                enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                                opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                                The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                                counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                                could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                                just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                                and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                                the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                                struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                                unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                                counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                                1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                                the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                                001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                                struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                                the other counterclashes.

                                There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                                hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                                <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                                occurs?
                                >  
                                > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                                also be nice.
                                >  
                                > Thanks.
                                >
                              • jeff ylitalo
                                I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                  I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                                   
                                  Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                                   
                                  On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                  From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                                  Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                                  To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                                  There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                                  shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                                  enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                                  opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                                  The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                                  counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                                  could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                                  just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                                  and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                                  the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                                  struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                                  unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                                  counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                                  1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                                  the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                                  001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                                  struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                                  the other counterclashes.

                                  There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                                  hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                                  --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                                  <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                                  occurs?
                                  >  
                                  > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                                  also be nice.
                                  >  
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >


                                • Mike Diamond
                                  Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                    Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                                    coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                    spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                    authenticity.

                                    I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                    is found. I'd like to see that too.

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                                    > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                                    > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                                    > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                    show
                                    > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                    > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                                    > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                    >
                                    > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                    > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                    > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                    through
                                    > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                    >
                                    > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                    in
                                    > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                    extra
                                    > letters were present in the die face.
                                    >
                                    > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                                    > helpful.
                                    >
                                    > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                    > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                    additional
                                    > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                    > accompanied by other die damage.
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                      With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                                      to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                                      detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                                      a
                                      > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                      > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                      > authenticity.
                                      >
                                      > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                      > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                                      >
                                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                      > <mdia1@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                                      capped
                                      > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                                      in
                                      > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                                      Delaware
                                      > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                      > show
                                      > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                      > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                                      there's
                                      > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                      > >
                                      > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                      > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                      > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                      > through
                                      > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                      > >
                                      > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                      > in
                                      > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                      > extra
                                      > > letters were present in the die face.
                                      > >
                                      > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                                      always
                                      > > helpful.
                                      > >
                                      > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                      > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                      > additional
                                      > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                      > > accompanied by other die damage.
                                      >
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