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I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    but instinct tells me it s worth a shot: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359 Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 25, 2008
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      but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359

      Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a counterclash...who
      knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and thinner
      that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and see
      about that.

      Wish me luck.
    • Travis Bolton
      Your instincts have paid off before but this one seems like quite a gamble to me. You re a brave soul for sure. Did the seller elaborate to you privately about
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 25, 2008
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        Your instincts have paid off before but this one seems like quite a
        gamble to me. You're a brave soul for sure. Did the seller elaborate
        to you privately about this? I can't see anything in the picture. Of
        course I wish you good luck too.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
        >
        > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a counterclash...who
        > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and thinner
        > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and see
        > about that.
        >
        > Wish me luck.
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        Yes, the seller sent me a private message on the characteristics of the extra letters. Whether his observations are accurate is another matter. Sometimes
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 25, 2008
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          Yes, the seller sent me a private message on the characteristics of
          the extra letters. Whether his observations are accurate is another
          matter. Sometimes it's better to gamble and lose than live with
          regret over an opportunity passed over.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Bolton"
          <travisbolton543@...> wrote:
          >
          > Your instincts have paid off before but this one seems like quite a
          > gamble to me. You're a brave soul for sure. Did the seller elaborate
          > to you privately about this? I can't see anything in the picture. Of
          > course I wish you good luck too.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
          > >
          > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
          counterclash...who
          > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
          thinner
          > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
          see
          > > about that.
          > >
          > > Wish me luck.
          > >
          >
        • Travis Bolton
          Sometimes it s better to gamble and lose than live with regret over an opportunity passed over. Good point, Is there a particular error type you want most out
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 25, 2008
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            Sometimes it's better to gamble and lose than live with regret over an opportunity passed over.

            Good point, Is there a particular error type you want most out this piece? A counterclash perhaps?

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, the seller sent me a private message on the characteristics of
            > the extra letters. Whether his observations are accurate is another
            > matter. Sometimes it's better to gamble and lose than live with
            > regret over an opportunity passed over.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Bolton"
            > travisbolton543@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Your instincts have paid off before but this one seems like quite a
            > > gamble to me. You're a brave soul for sure. Did the seller elaborate
            > > to you privately about this? I can't see anything in the picture. Of
            > > course I wish you good luck too.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > > <mdia1@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
            > > >
            > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
            > > >
            > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
            > counterclash...who
            > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
            > thinner
            > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
            > see
            > > > about that.
            > > >
            > > > Wish me luck.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Mike Diamond
            Any of the possibilities I mentioned would be dandy. If I had to choose a favorite, I d go with a counterclash. There are no examples on any quarter. ... an
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 25, 2008
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              Any of the possibilities I mentioned would be dandy. If I had to
              choose a favorite, I'd go with a counterclash. There are no examples
              on any quarter.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Travis Bolton"
              <travisbolton543@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sometimes it's better to gamble and lose than live with regret over
              an
              > opportunity passed over.
              >
              > Good point, Is there a particular error type you want most out this
              > piece? A counterclash perhaps?
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yes, the seller sent me a private message on the characteristics
              of
              > > the extra letters. Whether his observations are accurate is
              another
              > > matter. Sometimes it's better to gamble and lose than live with
              > > regret over an opportunity passed over.
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Travis
              Bolton"
              > > travisbolton543@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Your instincts have paid off before but this one seems like
              quite a
              > > > gamble to me. You're a brave soul for sure. Did the seller
              elaborate
              > > > to you privately about this? I can't see anything in the
              picture. Of
              > > > course I wish you good luck too.
              > > >
              > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
              Diamond"
              > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
              > > > >
              > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
              ViewItem&item=320288437359
              > > > >
              > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
              > > counterclash...who
              > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
              > > thinner
              > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
              and
              > > see
              > > > > about that.
              > > > >
              > > > > Wish me luck.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Mike Diamond
              I have the coin and it s a real error, but I m not sure what kind. CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears simultaneously incuse and
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what kind.
                CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any form
                of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a late die
                state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used to
                seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through a thin
                layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-struck
                zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew it over.

                Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off handsomely,
                at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                >
                > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
                >
                > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                counterclash...who
                > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and thinner
                > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and see
                > about that.
                >
                > Wish me luck.
                >
              • Mike Diamond
                Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low relief). That would be
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                  Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each letter
                  is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
                  relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
                  itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
                  rest of the design.

                  This is really exciting, as it will represent the first counterclash
                  on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
                  encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?

                  Photos before the day is out, I promise.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what kind.
                  > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                  > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
                  form
                  > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a late
                  die
                  > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used to
                  > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through a
                  thin
                  > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
                  struck
                  > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew it
                  over.
                  >
                  > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
                  handsomely,
                  > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  > <mdia1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                  > >
                  > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
                  > >
                  > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                  > counterclash...who
                  > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
                  thinner
                  > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
                  see
                  > > about that.
                  > >
                  > > Wish me luck.
                  > >
                  >
                • jeff ylitalo
                  Indeed! ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought, To:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                    Indeed!

                    --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                    Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,
                    To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 2:09 PM


                    Photos before the day is out, I promise.
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                  • Mike Diamond
                    Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album. ... letter ... counterclash ... kind. ... late ... to ... a ... it ... Diamond
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                      Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
                      letter
                      > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
                      > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
                      > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects the
                      > rest of the design.
                      >
                      > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
                      counterclash
                      > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
                      > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
                      >
                      > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      > <mdia1@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
                      kind.
                      > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                      > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with any
                      > form
                      > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
                      late
                      > die
                      > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten used
                      to
                      > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck through
                      a
                      > thin
                      > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
                      > struck
                      > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
                      it
                      > over.
                      > >
                      > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
                      > handsomely,
                      > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
                      > >
                      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                      Diamond"
                      > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320288437359
                      > > >
                      > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                      > > counterclash...who
                      > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
                      > thinner
                      > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait and
                      > see
                      > > > about that.
                      > > >
                      > > > Wish me luck.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters -- but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs of authenticity
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                        I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters --
                        but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
                        of authenticity include the following:

                        1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
                        of die deterioration as the normal letters.

                        2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in the
                        tiny spaces between the normal letters.

                        3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
                        struck area.

                        Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration, there
                        must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
                        escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
                        leaving the Mint?

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        > <mdia1@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
                        > letter
                        > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
                        > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
                        > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
                        the
                        > > rest of the design.
                        > >
                        > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
                        > counterclash
                        > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
                        > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
                        > >
                        > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
                        > >
                        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                        Diamond"
                        > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
                        > kind.
                        > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                        > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
                        any
                        > > form
                        > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
                        > late
                        > > die
                        > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
                        used
                        > to
                        > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
                        through
                        > a
                        > > thin
                        > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
                        > > struck
                        > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
                        > it
                        > > over.
                        > > >
                        > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
                        > > handsomely,
                        > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                        > Diamond"
                        > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                        ViewItem&item=320288437359
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                        > > > counterclash...who
                        > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
                        > > thinner
                        > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
                        and
                        > > see
                        > > > > about that.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wish me luck.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • jylitalo
                        My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                          My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                          letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
                          hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                          RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                          counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
                          to eliminate it as a fake.

                          This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
                          deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

                          From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                          Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
                          case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                          quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                          began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
                          THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
                          might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                          suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

                          I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

                          ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
                          quarters --
                          > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
                          > of authenticity include the following:
                          >
                          > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
                          > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
                          >
                          > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
                          the
                          > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
                          >
                          > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
                          > struck area.
                          >
                          > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
                          there
                          > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
                          > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
                          > leaving the Mint?
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          > <mdia1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
                          > >
                          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          Diamond"
                          > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
                          > > letter
                          > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
                          > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
                          > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
                          > the
                          > > > rest of the design.
                          > > >
                          > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
                          > > counterclash
                          > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
                          distinct
                          > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
                          > > >
                          > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          > Diamond"
                          > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
                          > > kind.
                          > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
                          > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
                          > any
                          > > > form
                          > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
                          a
                          > > late
                          > > > die
                          > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
                          > used
                          > > to
                          > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
                          > through
                          > > a
                          > > > thin
                          > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
                          grease-
                          > > > struck
                          > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
                          chew
                          > > it
                          > > > over.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
                          > > > handsomely,
                          > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
                          Errorland.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          > > Diamond"
                          > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                          > ViewItem&item=320288437359
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
                          > > > > counterclash...who
                          > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
                          > > > thinner
                          > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
                          > and
                          > > > see
                          > > > > > about that.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Wish me luck.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mike Diamond
                          ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                            <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                            > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

                            Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                            that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                            around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                            areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


                            > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                            > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                            > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                            help
                            > to eliminate it as a fake.
                            >
                            > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
                            to
                            > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

                            Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
                            die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

                            > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                            > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
                            a
                            > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                            > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                            > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
                            I
                            > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
                            > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                            > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                            >
                            > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

                            I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                            can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                            counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                          • Mike Diamond
                            It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                              can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                              see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                              > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                              > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                              DDD.
                              >
                              > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                              > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                              > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                              > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                              >
                              >
                              > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                              > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                              > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                              > help
                              > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                              > >
                              > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                              started
                              > to
                              > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                              >
                              > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                              the
                              > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                              >
                              > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                              > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                              saw
                              > a
                              > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                              > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                              > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                              quarters.
                              > I
                              > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                              which
                              > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                              > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                              > >
                              > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                              >
                              > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                              > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                              > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                              >
                            • innff@aol.com
                              Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
                                 
                                BJ
                                 
                                In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

                                It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
                                can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
                                see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

                                --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
                                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                                > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
                                > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
                                DDD.
                                >
                                > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
                                > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
                                > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
                                > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
                                >
                                >
                                > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
                                > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
                                > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
                                > help
                                > > to eliminate it as a fake.
                                > >
                                > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
                                started
                                > to
                                > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
                                >
                                > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
                                the
                                > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
                                >
                                > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
                                > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
                                saw
                                > a
                                > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
                                > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
                                > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
                                quarters.
                                > I
                                > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
                                which
                                > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
                                > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
                                > >
                                > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
                                >
                                > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
                                > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
                                > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
                                >




                              • Mike Diamond
                                I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                  I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
                                  and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
                                  any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
                                  Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
                                  counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
                                  account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
                                  would
                                  > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
                                  the time
                                  > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
                                  something not
                                  > easily missed.
                                • Marc
                                  Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                    Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                                    capped die something to me.

                                    The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                                    stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                                    those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                                    above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                                    at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                                    is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                                    the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                                    responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                                    letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                                    As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                                    capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                                    the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                                    displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                                    stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                                    such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                                    My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                                    My 2 cents worth....
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                      I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                                      die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                                      its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                                      quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                                      a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                      strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                                      never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                                      The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                      incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                      could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                                      appearance in the surrounding area.

                                      The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                                      the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                                      letters were present in the die face.

                                      I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                                      helpful.

                                      I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                      shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                                      support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                      accompanied by other die damage.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                                      <numismistake@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                                      > capped die something to me.
                                      >
                                      > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                                      > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                                      > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                                      tripled
                                      > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                                      > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                                      cap
                                      > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                                      > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                                      be
                                      > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                                      > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                                      design.
                                      >
                                      > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                                      thru
                                      > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                                      > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                                      > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                                      > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                                      > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                                      >
                                      > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                                      >
                                      > My 2 cents worth....
                                      >
                                    • jeff ylitalo
                                      If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                        If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                                         
                                        While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                                         
                                        Thanks.

                                      • Mike Diamond
                                        There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                          There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                                          shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                                          enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                                          opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                                          The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                                          counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                                          could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                                          just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                                          and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                                          the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                                          struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                                          unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                                          counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                                          1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                                          the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                                          001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                                          struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                                          the other counterclashes.

                                          There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                                          hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                                          <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                                          occurs?
                                          >  
                                          > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                                          also be nice.
                                          >  
                                          > Thanks.
                                          >
                                        • jeff ylitalo
                                          I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                            I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                                             
                                            Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                                             
                                            On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                            From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                                            Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                                            To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                                            There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                                            shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                                            enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                                            opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                                            The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                                            counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                                            could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                                            just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                                            and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                                            the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                                            struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                                            unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                                            counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                                            1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                                            the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                                            001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                                            struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                                            the other counterclashes.

                                            There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                                            hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                                            --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                                            <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                                            occurs?
                                            >  
                                            > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                                            also be nice.
                                            >  
                                            > Thanks.
                                            >


                                          • Mike Diamond
                                            Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                              Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                                              coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                              spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                              authenticity.

                                              I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                              is found. I'd like to see that too.

                                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                              <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                                              > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                                              > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                                              > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                              show
                                              > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                              > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                                              > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                              >
                                              > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                              > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                              > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                              through
                                              > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                              >
                                              > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                              in
                                              > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                              extra
                                              > letters were present in the die face.
                                              >
                                              > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                                              > helpful.
                                              >
                                              > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                              > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                              additional
                                              > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                              > accompanied by other die damage.
                                            • Mike Diamond
                                              With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                                With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                                                to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                                                detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                                                a
                                                > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                                                > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                                                > authenticity.
                                                >
                                                > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                                                > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                                                >
                                                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                                > <mdia1@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                                                capped
                                                > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                                                in
                                                > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                                                Delaware
                                                > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                                                > show
                                                > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                                                > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                                                there's
                                                > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                                                > >
                                                > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                                                > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                                                > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                                                > through
                                                > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                                                > >
                                                > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                                                > in
                                                > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                                                > extra
                                                > > letters were present in the die face.
                                                > >
                                                > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                                                always
                                                > > helpful.
                                                > >
                                                > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                                                > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                                                > additional
                                                > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                                                > > accompanied by other die damage.
                                                >
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