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Another Burundi 5 franc

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  • jylitalo
    (Uploaded 3 x pic s to default folder) Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
      (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)

      Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
      diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we cannot
      take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish this
      one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.

      There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
      additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
      from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.

      The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
      hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
      enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
      first place where the indented region is located).

      The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design present
      to support a double strike.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
      <jylitalo@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks guys.
      >
      > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been
      simply double struck.
      >
      > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
      collar. I will load it up shortly).
    • Marc
      This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate before falling
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
        This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
        you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
        before falling off.
      • jylitalo
        I like the term, lasted as you said Mark. Thanks :^) Jeff
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
          I like the term, 'lasted' as you said Mark.

          Thanks :^)

          Jeff

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
          <numismistake@...> wrote:
          >
          > This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
          > you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
          > before falling off.
          >
        • Mike Diamond
          It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the hammer die shows a large
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
            It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
            bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
            hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
            both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
            there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
            quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
            <jylitalo@...> wrote:
            >
            > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
            >
            > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
            > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
            cannot
            > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
            this
            > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
            >
            > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
            > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
            > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
            >
            > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
            > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
            > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
            > first place where the indented region is located).
            >
            > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
            present
            > to support a double strike.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
            > <jylitalo@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks guys.
            > >
            > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
            been
            > simply double struck.
            > >
            > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
            > collar. I will load it up shortly).
            >
          • jeff ylitalo
            I ve loaded up three more pic s which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
              I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?

              Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?

              Thanks.

              --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
              From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
              Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
              To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM

              It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
              bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
              hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
              both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
              there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
              quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

              --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
              <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
              >
              > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
              > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
              cannot
              > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
              this
              > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
              >
              > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
              > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
              > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
              >
              > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
              > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
              > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
              > first place where the indented region is located).
              >
              > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
              present
              > to support a double strike.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
              > <jylitalo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks guys.
              > >
              > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
              been
              > simply double struck.
              > >
              > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
              > collar. I will load it up shortly).
              >


            • Mike Diamond
              I agree that these look like strike lines. I d therefore characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily embedded in the coin from the
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                is quite indiscriminate.

                I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                >
                > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                >
                > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                franc
                > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                anvil die
                >
                > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                >
                > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                through
                >
                > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                thing,
                >
                > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                >
                > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                >
                > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                >
                > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                >
                > cannot
                >
                > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                >
                > this
                >
                > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                >
                > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                built
                >
                > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                alloys
                >
                > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                >
                > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                >
                > > first place where the indented region is located).
                >
                > >
                >
                > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                >
                > present
                >
                > > to support a double strike.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                ylitalo
                >
                > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Thanks guys.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                >
                > been
                >
                > > simply double struck.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                of
                >
                > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                >
                > >
                >
              • jeff ylitalo
                Thanks for the comments, Mike. ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc To:
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 11, 2008
                  Thanks for the comments, Mike.

                  --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                  Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
                  To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 9:35 PM

                  I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                  characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                  embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                  It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                  struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                  grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                  is quite indiscriminate.

                  I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                  during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                  strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                  The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                  --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                  <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                  I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                  obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                  lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                  coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                  >
                  > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                  metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                  > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                  franc
                  > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                  anvil die
                  >
                  > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                  >
                  > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                  through
                  >
                  > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                  thing,
                  >
                  > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                  >
                  > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                  >
                  > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                  >
                  > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                  >
                  > cannot
                  >
                  > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                  >
                  > this
                  >
                  > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                  >
                  > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                  built
                  >
                  > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                  alloys
                  >
                  > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                  >
                  > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                  >
                  > > first place where the indented region is located).
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                  >
                  > present
                  >
                  > > to support a double strike.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                  ylitalo
                  >
                  > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > Thanks guys.
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                  >
                  > been
                  >
                  > > simply double struck.
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                  of
                  >
                  > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                  >
                  > >
                  >


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