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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Burundi 5 franc

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  • jeff ylitalo
    Thanks guys. I ve another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been simply double struck. (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
      Thanks guys.

      I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been simply double struck.

      (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of collar. I will load it up shortly).

      Jeff

    • jylitalo
      (Uploaded 3 x pic s to default folder) Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
        (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)

        Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
        diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we cannot
        take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish this
        one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.

        There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
        additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
        from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.

        The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
        hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
        enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
        first place where the indented region is located).

        The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design present
        to support a double strike.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
        <jylitalo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks guys.
        >
        > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been
        simply double struck.
        >
        > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
        collar. I will load it up shortly).
      • Marc
        This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate before falling
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
          This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
          you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
          before falling off.
        • jylitalo
          I like the term, lasted as you said Mark. Thanks :^) Jeff
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
            I like the term, 'lasted' as you said Mark.

            Thanks :^)

            Jeff

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
            <numismistake@...> wrote:
            >
            > This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
            > you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
            > before falling off.
            >
          • Mike Diamond
            It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the hammer die shows a large
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
              It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
              bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
              hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
              both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
              there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
              quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
              <jylitalo@...> wrote:
              >
              > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
              >
              > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
              > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
              cannot
              > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
              this
              > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
              >
              > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
              > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
              > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
              >
              > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
              > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
              > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
              > first place where the indented region is located).
              >
              > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
              present
              > to support a double strike.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
              > <jylitalo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks guys.
              > >
              > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
              been
              > simply double struck.
              > >
              > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
              > collar. I will load it up shortly).
              >
            • jeff ylitalo
              I ve loaded up three more pic s which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?

                Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?

                Thanks.

                --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
                To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM

                It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
                bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
                both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
                there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

                --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                >
                > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                cannot
                > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                this
                > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                >
                > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
                > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                >
                > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
                > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                > first place where the indented region is located).
                >
                > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                present
                > to support a double strike.
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks guys.
                > >
                > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                been
                > simply double struck.
                > >
                > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
                > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                >


              • Mike Diamond
                I agree that these look like strike lines. I d therefore characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily embedded in the coin from the
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                  I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                  characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                  embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                  It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                  struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                  grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                  is quite indiscriminate.

                  I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                  during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                  strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                  The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                  <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                  I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                  obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                  lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                  coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                  >
                  > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                  metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                  > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                  franc
                  > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                  anvil die
                  >
                  > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                  >
                  > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                  through
                  >
                  > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                  thing,
                  >
                  > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                  >
                  > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                  >
                  > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                  >
                  > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                  >
                  > cannot
                  >
                  > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                  >
                  > this
                  >
                  > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                  >
                  > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                  built
                  >
                  > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                  alloys
                  >
                  > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                  >
                  > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                  >
                  > > first place where the indented region is located).
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                  >
                  > present
                  >
                  > > to support a double strike.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                  ylitalo
                  >
                  > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > Thanks guys.
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                  >
                  > been
                  >
                  > > simply double struck.
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                  of
                  >
                  > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                • jeff ylitalo
                  Thanks for the comments, Mike. ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc To:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 11, 2008
                    Thanks for the comments, Mike.

                    --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                    Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
                    To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 9:35 PM

                    I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                    characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                    embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                    It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                    struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                    grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                    is quite indiscriminate.

                    I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                    during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                    strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                    The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                    --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                    <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                    I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                    obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                    lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                    coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                    >
                    > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                    metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                    > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                    franc
                    > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                    anvil die
                    >
                    > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                    >
                    > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                    through
                    >
                    > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                    thing,
                    >
                    > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                    >
                    > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                    >
                    > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                    >
                    > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                    >
                    > cannot
                    >
                    > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                    >
                    > this
                    >
                    > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                    >
                    > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                    built
                    >
                    > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                    alloys
                    >
                    > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                    >
                    > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                    >
                    > > first place where the indented region is located).
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                    >
                    > present
                    >
                    > > to support a double strike.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                    ylitalo
                    >
                    > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > Thanks guys.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                    >
                    > been
                    >
                    > > simply double struck.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                    of
                    >
                    > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                    >
                    > >
                    >


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