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Burundi 5 franc

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  • Marc
    Looks like the first strike might have been through the feeder finger due to the shape of the indent, or something else...the 2nd strike more off center on the
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 8, 2008
      Looks like the first strike might have been through the feeder finger
      due to the shape of the indent, or something else...the 2nd strike more
      off center on the first DSBS. It doesn't look like any type of capped
      die error to me though. Still a very nice find, Jeff, even if I'm wrong
      on the diagnosis.
    • Mike Diamond
      I see no evidence that this coin was ever a die cap. The first strike is off-center, fully die-struck on one face and with an internal indent or strike-thru
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
        I see no evidence that this coin was ever a die cap. The first strike
        is off-center, fully die-struck on one face and with an "internal"
        indent or strike-thru on the opposite face. The second strike is more
        off-center and is die-struck on both faces.

        It does present an interesting appearance.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
        <jylitalo@...> wrote:
        >
        > (Uploaded 4 x pics to default folder)
        >
        > I didn't have an off-center coin which also served as a die-cap, but I
        > am hoping I scored one finally with this Burundi 5 franc coin.
        >
        > While it is aluminum and explains the brittle appearances, it was
        > struck at least twice when viewing either face. The reverse face is
        > largely obliterated, but you can still see two clear strikes. The
        > indented region on the reverse had given me hope that the coin could
        > have been a die-cap, but now that I have it I am not entirely certain.
        >
        > Even if it is only multi-struck and off-center error, I didn't have
        > one of those either. The twenty bucks I paid was worth the mystery.
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
      • jeff ylitalo
        Thanks guys. I ve another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been simply double struck. (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
          Thanks guys.

          I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been simply double struck.

          (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of collar. I will load it up shortly).

          Jeff

        • jylitalo
          (Uploaded 3 x pic s to default folder) Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
            (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)

            Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
            diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we cannot
            take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish this
            one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.

            There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
            additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
            from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.

            The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
            hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
            enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
            first place where the indented region is located).

            The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design present
            to support a double strike.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
            <jylitalo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks guys.
            >
            > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have been
            simply double struck.
            >
            > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
            collar. I will load it up shortly).
          • Marc
            This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate before falling
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
              This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
              you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
              before falling off.
            • jylitalo
              I like the term, lasted as you said Mark. Thanks :^) Jeff
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 9, 2008
                I like the term, 'lasted' as you said Mark.

                Thanks :^)

                Jeff

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                <numismistake@...> wrote:
                >
                > This coin appears to be a die cap that lasted AT LEAST 2-3 strikes. As
                > you said jeff, the aluminum is soft and the cap started to disintegrate
                > before falling off.
                >
              • Mike Diamond
                It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the hammer die shows a large
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                  It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
                  bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                  hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
                  both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
                  there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                  quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
                  <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                  >
                  > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                  > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                  cannot
                  > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                  this
                  > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                  >
                  > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                  > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
                  > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                  >
                  > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
                  > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                  > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                  > first place where the indented region is located).
                  >
                  > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                  present
                  > to support a double strike.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                  > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks guys.
                  > >
                  > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                  been
                  > simply double struck.
                  > >
                  > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
                  > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                  >
                • jeff ylitalo
                  I ve loaded up three more pic s which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                    I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?

                    Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?

                    Thanks.

                    --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                    Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
                    To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM

                    It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the anvil die
                    bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                    hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present through
                    both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one thing,
                    there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                    quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.

                    --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                    <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                    >
                    > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                    > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                    cannot
                    > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                    this
                    > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                    >
                    > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                    > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is built
                    > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                    >
                    > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum alloys
                    > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                    > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                    > first place where the indented region is located).
                    >
                    > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                    present
                    > to support a double strike.
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                    > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thanks guys.
                    > >
                    > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                    been
                    > simply double struck.
                    > >
                    > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out of
                    > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                    >


                  • Mike Diamond
                    I agree that these look like strike lines. I d therefore characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily embedded in the coin from the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 10, 2008
                      I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                      characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                      embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                      It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                      struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                      grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                      is quite indiscriminate.

                      I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                      during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                      strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                      The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                      <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                      I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                      obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                      lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                      coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                      >
                      > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                      metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                      >
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                      > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                      > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                      franc
                      > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                      anvil die
                      >
                      > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                      >
                      > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                      through
                      >
                      > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                      thing,
                      >
                      > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                      >
                      > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                      >
                      > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                      >
                      > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                      >
                      > cannot
                      >
                      > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                      >
                      > this
                      >
                      > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                      >
                      > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                      built
                      >
                      > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                      alloys
                      >
                      > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                      >
                      > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                      >
                      > > first place where the indented region is located).
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                      >
                      > present
                      >
                      > > to support a double strike.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                      ylitalo
                      >
                      > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > Thanks guys.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                      >
                      > been
                      >
                      > > simply double struck.
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                      of
                      >
                      > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • jeff ylitalo
                      Thanks for the comments, Mike. ... From: Mike Diamond Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc To:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 11, 2008
                        Thanks for the comments, Mike.

                        --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5 franc
                        To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 9:35 PM

                        I agree that these look like strike lines. I'd therefore
                        characterize the coin as multi-struck, with a planchet temporarily
                        embedded in the coin from the beginning of the striking sequence.

                        It still doesn't qualify as a die cap as there is no evidence that it
                        struck another planchet after initial formation. I have no doubt the
                        grading services would call it a die cap, since their use of the term
                        is quite indiscriminate.

                        I have a double-struck dime that was indented by the same planchet
                        during both strikes, with no movement of the planchet between
                        strikes. I do not characterize it as a die cap.

                        The reeded edge of your coin does show a vertical collar crack.

                        --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                        <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've loaded up three more pic's which are a closer look at the area
                        I called the wall, where the petals start to take form. Here are
                        obvious, multiple strike lines. If they are are not separate strike
                        lines, what are they? If they are authentic strike lines, then the
                        coin was simply multi-struck, but was never a die-cap?
                        >
                        > Also, where the reeded edge lies, there is raised, thick line of
                        metal. Not sure what this indicates, maybe a collar cud?
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                        > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Another Burundi 5
                        franc
                        > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 7:35 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It was certainly struck twice. The face struck by the
                        anvil die
                        >
                        > bears two clear die-struck impressions. The face struck by the
                        >
                        > hammer die shows a large indent, which may have been present
                        through
                        >
                        > both strikes. I wouldn't call it a die cap, though. For one
                        thing,
                        >
                        > there was too much movement between strikes and secondly, there is
                        >
                        > quite a bit of die-struck design on the hammer die face.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
                        >
                        > <jylitalo@ .> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > (Uploaded 3 x pic's to default folder)
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Another Burundi 5 francs, this one has expanded well beyond the
                        >
                        > > diameter of a Morgan silver dollar. Just because it is big, we
                        >
                        > cannot
                        >
                        > > take for granted that supporting evidence is present to establish
                        >
                        > this
                        >
                        > > one as a die-cap, so here are a few observations.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > There is some progressive walling. I do see what appears to be
                        >
                        > > additional strike lines along the surface of the wall which is
                        built
                        >
                        > > from the obverse face downward to the spreading petals.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > The reverse face is again obliterated. I don't think aluminum
                        alloys
                        >
                        > > hold up well enough after successive poundings to preserve any
                        >
                        > > enlarged or expanding die design, (if there was any design in the
                        >
                        > > first place where the indented region is located).
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > The coin has been struck at least twice with enough die design
                        >
                        > present
                        >
                        > > to support a double strike.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff
                        ylitalo
                        >
                        > > <jylitalo@> wrote:
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Thanks guys.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > I've another which I feel is an actual die-cap. It too may have
                        >
                        > been
                        >
                        > > simply double struck.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > (Perhaps once while confined by the collar and again while out
                        of
                        >
                        > > collar. I will load it up shortly).
                        >
                        > >
                        >


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