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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] PCGS Grading Planchets - Fred:

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  • fred_weinberg
    Coin grading is on a scale of G.,V.G., etc. up to MS, etc. I don t see the purpose in starting to grade Blanks with a different set of numbers or criteria.It
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Coin grading is on a scale of G.,V.G., etc. up to MS, etc.

      I don't see the purpose in starting to grade Blanks
      with a different set of numbers or criteria.It would
      be confusing, and introducing a new set of numbers and
      terms that just isn't needed, in my opinion.

      Why fix something that isn't broke? Aside from the valid
      discussion about whether TPG services SHOULD grade
      Blank Planchets, if they do, why not use the current
      grading system and standards?

      Fred


      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
      <my_errors@...> wrote:
      >
      > How does MS-A, MS-Z or any other intemediate grade sound as a
      grading system for planchets?
      > What problem (s) or solution (s) could arise with the existing
      planchet errors if such proposed system was accepted?
      > Rafael
      >
      > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > Rafael,
      >
      > List a question or two, and I'll be happy to try to
      > answer it.....
      >
      > Fred
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
      > <my_errors@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Fred
      > > I know many of my assumptions will be wrong as I have been
      > learning since 1999 only. Probably I have a long way to go. I am
      > trying, anyway.
      > > Maybe you can enlighten me on the other points also.
      > > Thanks
      > > Rafael
      > >
      > > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > > Rafael,
      > >
      > > Your assumption is wrong. Neither the
      > > Blank Planchet, nor the normal struck
      > > coin "starts out as MS-70" in the graders
      > > eye.
      > >
      > > While it may be a fine point to say a blank
      > > is MS-61 vrs. MS-62, it is very easy to determine
      > > if a blank planchet is circ. or Unc., in my opinion.
      > >
      > > Fred
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
      > > <my_errors@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Life is full of surprises. Up till now I thought that grading
      > > referred to the clarity, freshness, and beauty of the strike,
      > which
      > > in turn translates into value as a result of specimen scarcity.
      > > >
      > > > As Fred points out, the planchets are being graded upon the
      > > basis of luster, bag marks, scratches...etc, as a paralell
      system
      > to
      > > the regular grading of the strike on normal coinage. This leads
      me
      > > to conclude that all planchets are graded MS-70 less the
      > detractory
      > > imperfections present at the time of encapsulation. A sort of
      > > planchet production grading system.
      > > >
      > > > It is surprising that such system, that precludes the mint's
      > > intervention, be handled side by side with the grading reserved
      > for
      > > coin strikes as planchets or blanks are not coins yet. I now
      > wonder
      > > how to interpret this grading based upon detracting from a non-
      > > existent conceptual coin. Maybe a solution might be that of
      > > assigning letters instead of numbers just for planchets. How
      does
      > MS-
      > > A, MS-Z or any other intemediate grade sound?
      > > > On the other hand, what problem or solution might arise with
      the
      > > grading of existent planchet errors, given such a proposed
      system?
      > > Maybe conventionalisms could be accepted to grade the damage
      > created
      > > during the Mint's processes. Would the damage created outside
      the
      > > Mint be considered with the same weight as that inflicted on the
      > > inside? ...etc.
      > > > I don't feel lenghty expositions are in order at the present
      but
      > > perhaps a club commitee should ask grading firms on their
      views...
      > > > Just my couple of cents,
      > > > Rafael
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Jeff <jylitalo@> wrote:
      > > > I can back up the NGC statement Fred.
      > > >
      > > > They don't grade them.
      > > >
      > > > Have several on hand from different countries,
      > > >
      > > > best,
      > > >
      > > > Jeff
      > > >
      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      > fred_weinberg
      > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      > copstaffer
      > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > > I don't know the exact reason why they grade them, as opposed
      > > > > to just authenticating them......
      > > > >
      > > > > An argument can be made for either point:
      > > > >
      > > > > 1. They're blank, so how can you grade a flat surface, or
      > > > >
      > > > > 2. Just like a struck coin, they can be graded basis the
      > > > > luster, bag marks, scratches, etc.
      > > > >
      > > > > Most PCGS-graded Blanks run from AU to MS-62.
      > > > > I don't have a problem with a nice, lusterous,
      > > > > blank planchet being graded MS-61 or MS-62.
      > > > >
      > > > > I believe that NGC does not put grades on their Blank
      Planchet
      > > > > holders....
      > > > >
      > > > > Hope the above helps out the discussion a bit.....
      > > > >
      > > > > Fred
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "Assigning a grade to a planchet is pointless, as they all
      > > have
      > > > > > tumbling marks from the annealing drum and rinse bath."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I couldn't agree more! I've always considered it to be
      > silly.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Fred - Any insight/rationale as to why PCGS chooses to
      grade
      > > > > > planchets (vice simply certifying them as "Genuine")?
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      > > > > Diamond"
      > > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > For me, a blank planchet is a blank planchet. After a
      few
      > > years
      > > > > > nobody
      > > > > > > will remember the planchet's provenience, and then all
      > > you've
      > > > > got
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > the word of the grading service.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Assigning a grade to a planchet is pointless, as they
      all
      > > have
      > > > > > tumbling
      > > > > > > marks from the annealing drum and rinse bath.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In
      > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "nivek000"
      > > > > > > <nivek@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I thought some readers of this forum might be
      interested
      > > in a
      > > > > > thread
      > > > > > > I
      > > > > > > > posted to the PCGS message forum about a 2006-P
      > Sacagawea
      > > > > blank
      > > > > > > > planchet:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?
      > > > > > catid=26&threadid=536121
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > - Kevin
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
      > > Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone
      > call rates.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
      >
    • Al C.
      AGREE. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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        AGREE.

        --- Rob Risi <rjrisi@...> wrote:

        > I SAY ENOUGH OF THIS GRADING OF PLANCHETS...HERE IS
        > MY SUGGESTION TO ALL THE GRADING COMPANIES......YES
        > I WOULD AGREE TO ASSIGNING A GRADE....2 OF
        > THEM....UNCIRCULATED OR CIRCULATED.....THOSE 2 WORDS
        > ONLY SHOULD BE USED...NO NUMBERS ON
        > PLANCHETS..PERIOD.
        > DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH ME?? I CANNOT SEE GRADING
        > A BLANK MS62 OR 65? UNLESS YOU WANT TO COUNT THE
        > BAGMARKS??????
        > ROB
        >
        > Rafael <my_errors@...> wrote:
        > How does MS-A, MS-Z or any other
        > intemediate grade sound as a grading system for
        > planchets?
        > What problem (s) or solution (s) could arise with
        > the existing planchet errors if such proposed
        > system was accepted?
        > Rafael
        >
        > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > Rafael,
        >
        > List a question or two, and I'll be happy to try to
        > answer it.....
        >
        > Fred
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > Rafael
        > <my_errors@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Fred
        > > I know many of my assumptions will be wrong as I
        > have been
        > learning since 1999 only. Probably I have a long way
        > to go. I am
        > trying, anyway.
        > > Maybe you can enlighten me on the other points
        > also.
        > > Thanks
        > > Rafael
        > >
        > > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > > Rafael,
        > >
        > > Your assumption is wrong. Neither the
        > > Blank Planchet, nor the normal struck
        > > coin "starts out as MS-70" in the graders
        > > eye.
        > >
        > > While it may be a fine point to say a blank
        > > is MS-61 vrs. MS-62, it is very easy to determine
        > > if a blank planchet is circ. or Unc., in my
        > opinion.
        > >
        > > Fred
        > >
        > > --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
        >
        > > <my_errors@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Life is full of surprises. Up till now I thought
        > that grading
        > > referred to the clarity, freshness, and beauty of
        > the strike,
        > which
        > > in turn translates into value as a result of
        > specimen scarcity.
        > > >
        > > > As Fred points out, the planchets are being
        > graded upon the
        > > basis of luster, bag marks, scratches...etc, as a
        > paralell system
        > to
        > > the regular grading of the strike on normal
        > coinage. This leads me
        > > to conclude that all planchets are graded MS-70
        > less the
        > detractory
        > > imperfections present at the time of
        > encapsulation. A sort of
        > > planchet production grading system.
        > > >
        > > > It is surprising that such system, that
        > precludes the mint's
        > > intervention, be handled side by side with the
        > grading reserved
        > for
        > > coin strikes as planchets or blanks are not coins
        > yet. I now
        > wonder
        > > how to interpret this grading based upon
        > detracting from a non-
        > > existent conceptual coin. Maybe a solution might
        > be that of
        > > assigning letters instead of numbers just for
        > planchets. How does
        > MS-
        > > A, MS-Z or any other intemediate grade sound?
        > > > On the other hand, what problem or solution
        > might arise with the
        > > grading of existent planchet errors, given such a
        > proposed system?
        > > Maybe conventionalisms could be accepted to grade
        > the damage
        > created
        > > during the Mint's processes. Would the damage
        > created outside the
        > > Mint be considered with the same weight as that
        > inflicted on the
        > > inside? ...etc.
        > > > I don't feel lenghty expositions are in order at
        > the present but
        > > perhaps a club commitee should ask grading firms
        > on their views...
        > > > Just my couple of cents,
        > > > Rafael
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Jeff <jylitalo@> wrote:
        > > > I can back up the NGC statement Fred.
        > > >
        > > > They don't grade them.
        > > >
        > > > Have several on hand from different countries,
        > > >
        > > > best,
        > > >
        > > > Jeff
        > > >
        > > > --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > fred_weinberg
        > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > copstaffer
        > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > > I don't know the exact reason why they grade
        > them, as opposed
        > > > > to just authenticating them......
        > > > >
        > > > > An argument can be made for either point:
        > > > >
        > > > > 1. They're blank, so how can you grade a flat
        > surface, or
        > > > >
        > > > > 2. Just like a struck coin, they can be graded
        > basis the
        > > > > luster, bag marks, scratches, etc.
        > > > >
        > > > > Most PCGS-graded Blanks run from AU to MS-62.
        > > > > I don't have a problem with a nice, lusterous,
        > > > > blank planchet being graded MS-61 or MS-62.
        > > > >
        > > > > I believe that NGC does not put grades on
        > their Blank Planchet
        > > > > holders....
        > > > >
        > > > > Hope the above helps out the discussion a
        > bit.....
        > > > >
        > > > > Fred
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "Assigning a grade to a planchet is
        > pointless, as they all
        > > have
        > > > > > tumbling marks from the annealing drum and
        > rinse bath."
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I couldn't agree more! I've always
        > considered it to be
        > silly.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Fred - Any insight/rationale as to why PCGS
        > chooses to grade
        > > > > > planchets (vice simply certifying them as
        > "Genuine")?
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        > > > > Diamond"
        > > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > For me, a blank planchet is a blank
        > planchet. After a few
        > > years
        > > > > > nobody
        > > > > > > will remember the planchet's provenience,
        > and then all
        > > you've
        > > > > got
        > > > > > is
        > > > > > > the word of the grading service.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Assigning a grade to a planchet is
        > pointless, as they all
        > > have
        > > > > > tumbling
        > > > > > > marks from the annealing drum and rinse
        > bath.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In
        > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > "nivek000"
        > > > > > > <nivek@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I thought some readers of this forum
        > might be interested
        > > in a
        > > > > > thread
        > > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > posted to the PCGS message forum about a
        > 2006-P
        > Sacagawea
        > > > > blank
        > > > > > > > planchet:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?
        > > > > > catid=26&threadid=536121
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > - Kevin
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------------
        > > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make
        > PC-to-Phone calls.
        > > Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's
        > low PC-to-Phone
        > call rates.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com.
        > Check it out.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
        > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.


        __________________________________________________
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      • Rafael
        Thanks Fred. Rafael fred_weinberg wrote: Coin grading is on a scale of G.,V.G., etc. up to MS, etc. I don t see the purpose in
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks Fred.
          Rafael

          fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Coin grading is on a scale of G.,V.G., etc. up to MS, etc.

          I don't see the purpose in starting to grade Blanks
          with a different set of numbers or criteria.It would
          be confusing, and introducing a new set of numbers and
          terms that just isn't needed, in my opinion.

          Why fix something that isn't broke? Aside from the valid
          discussion about whether TPG services SHOULD grade
          Blank Planchets, if they do, why not use the current
          grading system and standards?

          Fred

          --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Rafael
          <my_errors@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > How does MS-A, MS-Z or any other intemediate grade sound as a
          grading system for planchets?
          > What problem (s) or solution (s) could arise with the existing
          planchet errors if such proposed system was accepted?
          > Rafael
          >
          > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
          > Rafael,
          >
          > List a question or two, and I'll be happy to try to
          > answer it.....
          >
          > Fred
          > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Rafael
          > <my_errors@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Fred
          > > I know many of my assumptions will be wrong as I have been
          > learning since 1999 only. Probably I have a long way to go. I am
          > trying, anyway.
          > > Maybe you can enlighten me on the other points also.
          > > Thanks
          > > Rafael
          > >
          > > fred_weinberg <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
          > > Rafael,
          > >
          > > Your assumption is wrong. Neither the
          > > Blank Planchet, nor the normal struck
          > > coin "starts out as MS-70" in the graders
          > > eye.
          > >
          > > While it may be a fine point to say a blank
          > > is MS-61 vrs. MS-62, it is very easy to determine
          > > if a blank planchet is circ. or Unc., in my opinion.
          > >
          > > Fred
          > >
          > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Rafael
          > > <my_errors@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Life is full of surprises. Up till now I thought that grading
          > > referred to the clarity, freshness, and beauty of the strike,
          > which
          > > in turn translates into value as a result of specimen scarcity.
          > > >
          > > > As Fred points out, the planchets are being graded upon the
          > > basis of luster, bag marks, scratches... etc, as a paralell
          system
          > to
          > > the regular grading of the strike on normal coinage. This leads
          me
          > > to conclude that all planchets are graded MS-70 less the
          > detractory
          > > imperfections present at the time of encapsulation. A sort of
          > > planchet production grading system.
          > > >
          > > > It is surprising that such system, that precludes the mint's
          > > intervention, be handled side by side with the grading reserved
          > for
          > > coin strikes as planchets or blanks are not coins yet. I now
          > wonder
          > > how to interpret this grading based upon detracting from a non-
          > > existent conceptual coin. Maybe a solution might be that of
          > > assigning letters instead of numbers just for planchets. How
          does
          > MS-
          > > A, MS-Z or any other intemediate grade sound?
          > > > On the other hand, what problem or solution might arise with
          the
          > > grading of existent planchet errors, given such a proposed
          system?
          > > Maybe conventionalisms could be accepted to grade the damage
          > created
          > > during the Mint's processes. Would the damage created outside
          the
          > > Mint be considered with the same weight as that inflicted on the
          > > inside? ...etc.
          > > > I don't feel lenghty expositions are in order at the present
          but
          > > perhaps a club commitee should ask grading firms on their
          views...
          > > > Just my couple of cents,
          > > > Rafael
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Jeff <jylitalo@> wrote:
          > > > I can back up the NGC statement Fred.
          > > >
          > > > They don't grade them.
          > > >
          > > > Have several on hand from different countries,
          > > >
          > > > best,
          > > >
          > > > Jeff
          > > >
          > > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com,
          > fred_weinberg
          > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com,
          > copstaffer
          > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > > I don't know the exact reason why they grade them, as opposed
          > > > > to just authenticating them......
          > > > >
          > > > > An argument can be made for either point:
          > > > >
          > > > > 1. They're blank, so how can you grade a flat surface, or
          > > > >
          > > > > 2. Just like a struck coin, they can be graded basis the
          > > > > luster, bag marks, scratches, etc.
          > > > >
          > > > > Most PCGS-graded Blanks run from AU to MS-62.
          > > > > I don't have a problem with a nice, lusterous,
          > > > > blank planchet being graded MS-61 or MS-62.
          > > > >
          > > > > I believe that NGC does not put grades on their Blank
          Planchet
          > > > > holders....
          > > > >
          > > > > Hope the above helps out the discussion a bit.....
          > > > >
          > > > > Fred
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > "Assigning a grade to a planchet is pointless, as they all
          > > have
          > > > > > tumbling marks from the annealing drum and rinse bath."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I couldn't agree more! I've always considered it to be
          > silly.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Fred - Any insight/rationale as to why PCGS chooses to
          grade
          > > > > > planchets (vice simply certifying them as "Genuine")?
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike
          > > > > Diamond"
          > > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > For me, a blank planchet is a blank planchet. After a
          few
          > > years
          > > > > > nobody
          > > > > > > will remember the planchet's provenience, and then all
          > > you've
          > > > > got
          > > > > > is
          > > > > > > the word of the grading service.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Assigning a grade to a planchet is pointless, as they
          all
          > > have
          > > > > > tumbling
          > > > > > > marks from the annealing drum and rinse bath.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In
          > > errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "nivek000"
          > > > > > > <nivek@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I thought some readers of this forum might be
          interested
          > > in a
          > > > > > thread
          > > > > > > I
          > > > > > > > posted to the PCGS message forum about a 2006-P
          > Sacagawea
          > > > > blank
          > > > > > > > planchet:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > http://forums. collectors. com/messageview. cfm?
          > > > > > catid=26&threadid= 536121
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        • Mike Diamond
          I don t see any way to distinguish tumbling marks from bag marks or other contact marks. I would think the grade was based on the total number of tumbling
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I don't see any way to distinguish tumbling marks from bag marks or
            other contact marks. I would think the grade was based on the total
            number of tumbling marks + bag marks. But, admittedly, I don't have
            a special window into the minds of graders.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
            <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Coin grading is on a scale of G.,V.G., etc. up to MS, etc.
            >
            > I don't see the purpose in starting to grade Blanks
            > with a different set of numbers or criteria.It would
            > be confusing, and introducing a new set of numbers and
            > terms that just isn't needed, in my opinion.
            >
            > Why fix something that isn't broke? Aside from the valid
            > discussion about whether TPG services SHOULD grade
            > Blank Planchets, if they do, why not use the current
            > grading system and standards?
            >
            > Fred
          • Error Coins
            Actually, I like the idea of grading planchets. Most of my blanks look like crap! I would be happy to pay a premium, a substantial premium at that, for a
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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              Actually, I like the idea of grading planchets. Most of my blanks look like
              crap! I would be happy to pay a premium, a substantial premium at that, for a
              planchet with good color and a minimum of marks from whatever the source. I
              realize that a grading service is not a requirement here, but it sure makes
              things easier when dealing trough the mail.

              Just a perspective from one "Small Time Collector".

              Later.....
              Steve

              PS Didn't brother Lindy have some sort of "system" for defining the best
              blanks?

              Error Type Collection:
              http://www.five0central.com/ErrorCollection/Five0ErrorTypeSet.htm
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