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Re: Fred's Die Cap Cent

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  • Mike Diamond
    Another reason I don t think it s a clashed, uniface die cap is the pattern of zinc exposure. I ve only seen this very sharp, clear exposure and abrupt
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
      Another reason I don't think it's a clashed, uniface die cap is the
      pattern of zinc exposure. I've only seen this very sharp, clear
      exposure and abrupt transition from copper to zinc in die-struck
      surfaces. On the working face of a die cap the copper plating breaks
      down gradually, usually with a fine, grainy sort of texture.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mike,
      >
      > I understand your explaination, and it makes some sense.
      > I'll check out the coin some more - I was going to list
      > it in the next week's Ebay material I'm putting up, but
      > I'll wait now till I feel more comforatable with it as
      > it is described.......
      >
      > Fred
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The interpretation that Fred apparently favors is that this is
      > > a "clashed cap". In other words, a uniface die cap that struck
      > the
      > > reverse die on the final strike. It couldn't be any other kind
      of
      > > die cap, since there's no design (raised or incuse) on the
      > upraised
      > > walls.
      > >
      > > While a clashed cap is possible, I don't think it's likely in
      this
      > > case. A cap that clashes with the reverse die seldom picks up a
      > > complete design, owing to the thinness of the cap bottom. I've
      > seen
      > > a lot of clashed cap strikes (a type of brockage) in my time, and
      > > almost all of them show a weakness in the middle corresponding to
      > > Lincoln's bust.
      > >
      > > I have owned a number of deeply cupped coins like this -- both
      > > broadstrikes and off-center strikes -- and still have a few. I
      > will
      > > post some images later on today. As far as I can tell, the
      > cupping
      > > is just one of those weird effects you sometimes get. I suspect
      > most
      > > of mine -- like Fred's -- were struck more than once, but I
      cannot
      > > prove it since none of mine moved between strikes.
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      fred_weinberg
      > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I'll have Kathy scan this coin when she comes in the office.
      > > >
      > > > Hopefully she can get a few angles that don't show up on the
      > > > website scans.
      > > >
      > > > I showed this coin, raw, to a very knowledgable "error"
      > > > person, who said the coin was a Capped Die, but that the
      > > > last strike was "normal", without a coin on the bottom,
      > > > which explains the full design strike on the reverse of this
      > > > piece.
      > > >
      > > > You can see two "VDB's", deep walls, extreme pressure
      > > > causing the zinc core to expose itself on both the obv.
      > > > and reverse sides of the coin.
      > > >
      > > > "In God We Trust" obv., and "United States of America"
      > > > show on the top inside "walls" of both sides.....
      > > >
      > > > Despite what the diagnosis is on this, I've never seen
      > > > a "Cupped Double Strike" quite like this - and the other
      > > > party was quite certain it was a Die Cap that had the
      > > > last strike "normal", as far as the reverse die was concerned.
      > > >
      > > > This should be fun..................
      > > >
      > > > Fred
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • fred_weinberg
      Jeff, You re right - the Memorial Design, & Lettering, can easily be seen, at an approx. rotation of 15-20 degrees or so.... Since both the Obv. and Rev.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
        Jeff,

        You're right - the Memorial Design, & Lettering, can
        easily be seen, at an approx. rotation of 15-20 degrees or
        so....

        Since both the Obv. and Rev. "Walls" show the "first"
        strike without any rotation, this is probably another
        strike - either the first or second, before the last
        "centered" strike......

        Fred



        I can Fred's pictures just fine in the folder that has been posted.
        > They show great detail and can be seen as "Large" when you click on
        > that option.
        >
        > I see everything Fred mentioned. Plus, I see something else.
        >
        > In the second picture in Fred's folder, the full sized Reverse, I
        see
        > underneath the die struck Memorial building, remanents of a
        previously
        > struck Memorial building which appear to be expanded. Also I
        believe
        > I see remanents of this Memorial underlying EPLURBIS UNUM and it
        too
        > appears to be greatly expanded.
        >
        > I can't be certain, but I believe I see expanded letters of
        EPLURBIS
        > UNUM just underneath and below the last die struck EPLURBIS UNUM.
        >
        > Unless I am seeing things.
        >
        > If what I just described is there, then it surely could be that
        > evidence needed to confirm it a Cap. After all expansion is what
        we
        > are looking for.
        >
        > (I thought it to be a die clash at first, but I don't see how it
        could
        > be).
        >
        > It is a beautiful Error Coin. WOW
        >
        > There is the outer rim --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
        > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > >
        > > We posted 5 pictures of that Die Cap coin were were discussing...
        > > It's under Fred Weinberg/ 1999 Die Cap/PCGS......
        > >
        > > I think it's the first time we've posted scans here, so
        > > I hope we did it right........
        > >
        > > Fred
        > >
        > >
        > > -- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        fred_weinberg
        > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I'll have Kathy scan this coin when she comes in the office.
        > > >
        > > > Hopefully she can get a few angles that don't show up on the
        > > > website scans.
        > > >
        > > > I showed this coin, raw, to a very knowledgable "error"
        > > > person, who said the coin was a Capped Die, but that the
        > > > last strike was "normal", without a coin on the bottom,
        > > > which explains the full design strike on the reverse of this
        > > > piece.
        > > >
        > > > You can see two "VDB's", deep walls, extreme pressure
        > > > causing the zinc core to expose itself on both the obv.
        > > > and reverse sides of the coin.
        > > >
        > > > "In God We Trust" obv., and "United States of America"
        > > > show on the top inside "walls" of both sides.....
        > > >
        > > > Despite what the diagnosis is on this, I've never seen
        > > > a "Cupped Double Strike" quite like this - and the other
        > > > party was quite certain it was a Die Cap that had the
        > > > last strike "normal", as far as the reverse die was concerned.
        > > >
        > > > This should be fun..................
        > > >
        > > > Fred
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        All I see is the tops of some of the letters from the first strike, which is no surprise since we already know it s a double-strike with some movement between
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
          All I see is the tops of some of the letters from the first strike,
          which is no surprise since we already know it's a double-strike with
          some movement between strikes. There may be some traces of the first
          strike beneath the second, but that's also to be expected.

          If this had started out as a conventional die cap that then clashed,
          you'd see the peripheral letters all around the periphery of the
          reverse.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff"
          <jylitalo@...> wrote:
          >
          > I can Fred's pictures just fine in the folder that has been posted.
          > They show great detail and can be seen as "Large" when you click on
          > that option.
          >
          > I see everything Fred mentioned. Plus, I see something else.
          >
          > In the second picture in Fred's folder, the full sized Reverse, I
          see
          > underneath the die struck Memorial building, remanents of a
          previously
          > struck Memorial building which appear to be expanded. Also I
          believe
          > I see remanents of this Memorial underlying EPLURBIS UNUM and it too
          > appears to be greatly expanded.
          >
          > I can't be certain, but I believe I see expanded letters of EPLURBIS
          > UNUM just underneath and below the last die struck EPLURBIS UNUM.
          >
          > Unless I am seeing things.
          >
          > If what I just described is there, then it surely could be that
          > evidence needed to confirm it a Cap. After all expansion is what we
          > are looking for.
          >
          > (I thought it to be a die clash at first, but I don't see how it
          could
          > be).
          >
          > It is a beautiful Error Coin. WOW
          >
          > There is the outer rim ---
        • Mike Diamond
          Since we can see the tops of die-struck reverse letters, that eliminates the possibility of this being a clashed, uniface die cap. Since we DON T see
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
            Since we can see the tops of die-struck reverse letters, that
            eliminates the possibility of this being a clashed, uniface die cap.
            Since we DON'T see flattened, expanded peripheral letters in the
            perimeter zone beyond the final, die-struck design, it cannot have
            started out as a conventional die cap. This combined with the
            pattern of zinc exposure essentially eliminates any possibility of
            this being a clashed cap of any kind.

            It appears to be what I originally said it was, a deeply cupped,
            double-struck cent.

            See my previous comments on the three deeply cupped cents I placed in
            the Default Album.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Another reason I don't think it's a clashed, uniface die cap is the
            > pattern of zinc exposure. I've only seen this very sharp, clear
            > exposure and abrupt transition from copper to zinc in die-struck
            > surfaces. On the working face of a die cap the copper plating
            breaks
            > down gradually, usually with a fine, grainy sort of texture.
          • Mike Diamond
            I see 15-20 degrees of rotation between the final strike and the earlier strike seen below Lincoln s bust and above UNITED STATES. I don t see any signs of a
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
              I see 15-20 degrees of rotation between the final strike and the
              earlier strike seen below Lincoln's bust and above UNITED STATES. I
              don't see any signs of a third strike, but one could conceivably be
              present.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
              <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jeff,
              >
              > You're right - the Memorial Design, & Lettering, can
              > easily be seen, at an approx. rotation of 15-20 degrees or
              > so....
              >
              > Since both the Obv. and Rev. "Walls" show the "first"
              > strike without any rotation, this is probably another
              > strike - either the first or second, before the last
              > "centered" strike......
              >
              > Fred
            • Jeff
              Fred, Yes, I see the rotation too. I was going to call it a third strike, but was confining myself to die cap verification first. If it is a third strike, it
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
                Fred,

                Yes, I see the rotation too.

                I was going to call it a third strike, but was confining myself to die
                cap verification first.

                If it is a third strike, it sure makes it even more interesting.

                I was honing in the expansion of that Memorial Building. If it was
                struck during the first or second strike as you say, then I am
                thinking that it did act as a Cap, especially when considering the
                expansion.

                It is interesting that it is rotated. Perhaps if acting as a cap,
                then this expanded memorial building did just that. It expanded in
                that counter-clock-wise direction of 15-20 Degrees and did so before
                that final clear strike overlying it.

                This makes sense, so far.

                Jeff

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jeff,
                >
                > You're right - the Memorial Design, & Lettering, can
                > easily be seen, at an approx. rotation of 15-20 degrees or
                > so....
                >
                > Since both the Obv. and Rev. "Walls" show the "first"
                > strike without any rotation, this is probably another
                > strike - either the first or second, before the last
                > "centered" strike......
                >
                > Fred
                >
                >
                >
                > I can Fred's pictures just fine in the folder that has been posted.
                > > They show great detail and can be seen as "Large" when you click on
                > > that option.
                > >
                > > I see everything Fred mentioned. Plus, I see something else.
                > >
                > > In the second picture in Fred's folder, the full sized Reverse, I
                > see
                > > underneath the die struck Memorial building, remanents of a
                > previously
                > > struck Memorial building which appear to be expanded. Also I
                > believe
                > > I see remanents of this Memorial underlying EPLURBIS UNUM and it
                > too
                > > appears to be greatly expanded.
                > >
                > > I can't be certain, but I believe I see expanded letters of
                > EPLURBIS
                > > UNUM just underneath and below the last die struck EPLURBIS UNUM.
                > >
                > > Unless I am seeing things.
                > >
                > > If what I just described is there, then it surely could be that
                > > evidence needed to confirm it a Cap. After all expansion is what
                > we
                > > are looking for.
                > >
                > > (I thought it to be a die clash at first, but I don't see how it
                > could
                > > be).
                > >
                > > It is a beautiful Error Coin. WOW
                > >
                > > There is the outer rim --- In
                > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > We posted 5 pictures of that Die Cap coin were were discussing...
                > > > It's under Fred Weinberg/ 1999 Die Cap/PCGS......
                > > >
                > > > I think it's the first time we've posted scans here, so
                > > > I hope we did it right........
                > > >
                > > > Fred
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > -- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                > fred_weinberg
                > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I'll have Kathy scan this coin when she comes in the office.
                > > > >
                > > > > Hopefully she can get a few angles that don't show up on the
                > > > > website scans.
                > > > >
                > > > > I showed this coin, raw, to a very knowledgable "error"
                > > > > person, who said the coin was a Capped Die, but that the
                > > > > last strike was "normal", without a coin on the bottom,
                > > > > which explains the full design strike on the reverse of this
                > > > > piece.
                > > > >
                > > > > You can see two "VDB's", deep walls, extreme pressure
                > > > > causing the zinc core to expose itself on both the obv.
                > > > > and reverse sides of the coin.
                > > > >
                > > > > "In God We Trust" obv., and "United States of America"
                > > > > show on the top inside "walls" of both sides.....
                > > > >
                > > > > Despite what the diagnosis is on this, I've never seen
                > > > > a "Cupped Double Strike" quite like this - and the other
                > > > > party was quite certain it was a Die Cap that had the
                > > > > last strike "normal", as far as the reverse die was concerned.
                > > > >
                > > > > This should be fun..................
                > > > >
                > > > > Fred
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Jeff
                I will add one other minor observation. Fred, You will have to verify it. I see a vauge outline of ONE CENT, just to the right of the final die struck ONE
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 29, 2006
                  I will add one other minor observation.

                  Fred, You will have to verify it. I see a vauge outline of ONE CENT,
                  just to the right of the final die struck ONE CENT. It does not
                  appear to be rotated, but just off course to the right and up. This
                  makes little sense, but it is interesting.

                  Also, Looking and re-looking, I can't see how much expansion that
                  rotated Memorial Building has. From your end, does it show expansion
                  as you would expect for a Cap with still remaining design detail? Or
                  does it appear as you would expect for a mulit strike and just rotated?

                  It is a bit hard from here to tell.

                  Jeff

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff"
                  <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Fred,
                  >
                  > Yes, I see the rotation too.
                  >
                  > I was going to call it a third strike, but was confining myself to die
                  > cap verification first.
                  >
                  > If it is a third strike, it sure makes it even more interesting.
                  >
                  > I was honing in the expansion of that Memorial Building. If it was
                  > struck during the first or second strike as you say, then I am
                  > thinking that it did act as a Cap, especially when considering the
                  > expansion.
                  >
                  > It is interesting that it is rotated. Perhaps if acting as a cap,
                  > then this expanded memorial building did just that. It expanded in
                  > that counter-clock-wise direction of 15-20 Degrees and did so before
                  > that final clear strike overlying it.
                  >
                  > This makes sense, so far.
                  >
                  > Jeff
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                  > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Jeff,
                  > >
                  > > You're right - the Memorial Design, & Lettering, can
                  > > easily be seen, at an approx. rotation of 15-20 degrees or
                  > > so....
                  > >
                  > > Since both the Obv. and Rev. "Walls" show the "first"
                  > > strike without any rotation, this is probably another
                  > > strike - either the first or second, before the last
                  > > "centered" strike......
                  > >
                  > > Fred
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I can Fred's pictures just fine in the folder that has been posted.
                  > > > They show great detail and can be seen as "Large" when you click on
                  > > > that option.
                  > > >
                  > > > I see everything Fred mentioned. Plus, I see something else.
                  > > >
                  > > > In the second picture in Fred's folder, the full sized Reverse, I
                  > > see
                  > > > underneath the die struck Memorial building, remanents of a
                  > > previously
                  > > > struck Memorial building which appear to be expanded. Also I
                  > > believe
                  > > > I see remanents of this Memorial underlying EPLURBIS UNUM and it
                  > > too
                  > > > appears to be greatly expanded.
                  > > >
                  > > > I can't be certain, but I believe I see expanded letters of
                  > > EPLURBIS
                  > > > UNUM just underneath and below the last die struck EPLURBIS UNUM.
                  > > >
                  > > > Unless I am seeing things.
                  > > >
                  > > > If what I just described is there, then it surely could be that
                  > > > evidence needed to confirm it a Cap. After all expansion is what
                  > > we
                  > > > are looking for.
                  > > >
                  > > > (I thought it to be a die clash at first, but I don't see how it
                  > > could
                  > > > be).
                  > > >
                  > > > It is a beautiful Error Coin. WOW
                  > > >
                  > > > There is the outer rim --- In
                  > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                  > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > We posted 5 pictures of that Die Cap coin were were discussing...
                  > > > > It's under Fred Weinberg/ 1999 Die Cap/PCGS......
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I think it's the first time we've posted scans here, so
                  > > > > I hope we did it right........
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Fred
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > fred_weinberg
                  > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I'll have Kathy scan this coin when she comes in the office.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hopefully she can get a few angles that don't show up on the
                  > > > > > website scans.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I showed this coin, raw, to a very knowledgable "error"
                  > > > > > person, who said the coin was a Capped Die, but that the
                  > > > > > last strike was "normal", without a coin on the bottom,
                  > > > > > which explains the full design strike on the reverse of this
                  > > > > > piece.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > You can see two "VDB's", deep walls, extreme pressure
                  > > > > > causing the zinc core to expose itself on both the obv.
                  > > > > > and reverse sides of the coin.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > "In God We Trust" obv., and "United States of America"
                  > > > > > show on the top inside "walls" of both sides.....
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Despite what the diagnosis is on this, I've never seen
                  > > > > > a "Cupped Double Strike" quite like this - and the other
                  > > > > > party was quite certain it was a Die Cap that had the
                  > > > > > last strike "normal", as far as the reverse die was concerned.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This should be fun..................
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Fred
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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