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Re: Possible addition to Byers' article on two-headed/two-tailed coins

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  • Mike Diamond
    I now have the set. The 1 sen coin with the date and denomination is definitely something other than a die-struck, double-obverse mule. One face is flattened,
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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      I now have the set. The 1 sen coin with the date and denomination is
      definitely something other than a die-struck, double-obverse mule.
      One face is flattened, with an undulating topography. The other face
      seems pretty normal, apart from being weakly struck.

      I think this coin was initially struck as an in-collar uniface strike
      and was then flipped over for a second uniface strike. The coin does
      not appear to have been pieced together. Nor is there any trace of
      an underlying design on the normal die-struck face.

      Another odd thing is that the two obverse designs were struck by
      different dies. The "normal" face shows an odd bit of die damage in
      the form of a "prong" protruding from beneath the "B" of Bank, while
      the other does not.

      The second coin, with the two drums (double-reverse mule), is only
      slightly less suspicious. Both faces appear to be die struck. One
      face, though, is rather rough and pitted in appearance. This could
      be due a combination of die wear and a pitted copper-plated steel
      planchet. Then again, it could imply the use of a fake die. Hard to
      say.

      I think I'll be more judicious in my purchases of these Malaysian
      assisted errors.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm rather hopeful that this set consisting of a two-headed and two-
      > tailed Malaysian 1 sen is real:
      >
      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=8380131370
      >
      > The coins appear to show finning of the rim, which is not a common
      > feature of fake mules. The seller has sold an identical set of 1
      sen
      > mules. The seller has been offering other assisted errors which
      look
      > like genuine mint products. Finally, there's a return guarantee.
      >
      > If they do turn out to be real, I'll take some decent photos and
      send
      > them on to Mike B.
      >
      > The previous set sold for something like $450, so I'm not sure why
      this
      > second set sold for a modest $132. I'm not complaining, of course
      (at
      > least not yet).
      >
    • Al C.
      There also seem to be a lot of shill bidding going on up to the $150.00 level. Mike, so what you are saying is that the first coin that you received was good
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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        There also seem to be a lot of shill bidding going on
        up to the $150.00 level.

        Mike, so what you are saying is that the first coin
        that you received was good and these two are
        questionable?



        --- Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

        > I now have the set. The 1 sen coin with the date
        > and denomination is
        > definitely something other than a die-struck,
        > double-obverse mule.
        > One face is flattened, with an undulating
        > topography. The other face
        > seems pretty normal, apart from being weakly struck.
        >
        > I think this coin was initially struck as an
        > in-collar uniface strike
        > and was then flipped over for a second uniface
        > strike. The coin does
        > not appear to have been pieced together. Nor is
        > there any trace of
        > an underlying design on the normal die-struck face.
        >
        > Another odd thing is that the two obverse designs
        > were struck by
        > different dies. The "normal" face shows an odd bit
        > of die damage in
        > the form of a "prong" protruding from beneath the
        > "B" of Bank, while
        > the other does not.
        >
        > The second coin, with the two drums (double-reverse
        > mule), is only
        > slightly less suspicious. Both faces appear to be
        > die struck. One
        > face, though, is rather rough and pitted in
        > appearance. This could
        > be due a combination of die wear and a pitted
        > copper-plated steel
        > planchet. Then again, it could imply the use of a
        > fake die. Hard to
        > say.
        >
        > I think I'll be more judicious in my purchases of
        > these Malaysian
        > assisted errors.
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > "Mike Diamond"
        > <mdia1@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I'm rather hopeful that this set consisting of a
        > two-headed and two-
        > > tailed Malaysian 1 sen is real:
        > >
        > >
        >
        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=8380131370
        > >
        > > The coins appear to show finning of the rim, which
        > is not a common
        > > feature of fake mules. The seller has sold an
        > identical set of 1
        > sen
        > > mules. The seller has been offering other
        > assisted errors which
        > look
        > > like genuine mint products. Finally, there's a
        > return guarantee.
        > >
        > > If they do turn out to be real, I'll take some
        > decent photos and
        > send
        > > them on to Mike B.
        > >
        > > The previous set sold for something like $450, so
        > I'm not sure why
        > this
        > > second set sold for a modest $132. I'm not
        > complaining, of course
        > (at
        > > least not yet).
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Mike Diamond
        The problem with some of these third world mints is that the planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made that even genuine specimens can look like they re
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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          The problem with some of these third world mints is that the
          planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made that even genuine
          specimens can look like they're counterfeits.

          On balance, I would still say that both of them are probably mint
          products. Of course, they are intentional errors that were probably
          hand-fed into the press.

          A lot of the striking errors being offered look authentic. The 10
          sen struck on 20 sen planchet I purchased earlier looks authentic.

          The two-obverse sen with one flattened face suggests that the
          fabricators had trouble making a hammer die function as the anvil
          die, probably owing to the different lengths of the die necks. So
          they found another way to make a "two-obverse coin". The coin
          resembles the double-struck "two-tailed quarter" we discussed some
          months back that was in an NGC slab. That one, too, had one
          flattened face. We discussed at least three ways this could have
          been produced.

          These coins are best treated -- and purchased -- as novelty items, in
          my opinion.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Al C."
          <bull102797@...> wrote:
          >
          > There also seem to be a lot of shill bidding going on
          > up to the $150.00 level.
          >
          > Mike, so what you are saying is that the first coin
          > that you received was good and these two are
          > questionable?
        • Mike Diamond
          I currently see on eBay at least one other two-obverse Malaysian 1 sen which appears to have the same flattened face on one side. ... probably ... in
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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            I currently see on eBay at least one other two-obverse Malaysian 1
            sen which appears to have the same flattened face on one side.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > The problem with some of these third world mints is that the
            > planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made that even genuine
            > specimens can look like they're counterfeits.
            >
            > On balance, I would still say that both of them are probably mint
            > products. Of course, they are intentional errors that were
            probably
            > hand-fed into the press.
            >
            > A lot of the striking errors being offered look authentic. The 10
            > sen struck on 20 sen planchet I purchased earlier looks authentic.
            >
            > The two-obverse sen with one flattened face suggests that the
            > fabricators had trouble making a hammer die function as the anvil
            > die, probably owing to the different lengths of the die necks. So
            > they found another way to make a "two-obverse coin". The coin
            > resembles the double-struck "two-tailed quarter" we discussed some
            > months back that was in an NGC slab. That one, too, had one
            > flattened face. We discussed at least three ways this could have
            > been produced.
            >
            > These coins are best treated -- and purchased -- as novelty items,
            in
            > my opinion.
          • Al C.
            Look like someone put in another order for these since the other ones sold for so much. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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              Look like someone put in another order for these since
              the other ones sold for so much.



              --- Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

              > I currently see on eBay at least one other
              > two-obverse Malaysian 1
              > sen which appears to have the same flattened face on
              > one side.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
              > "Mike Diamond"
              > <mdia1@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > The problem with some of these third world mints
              > is that the
              > > planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made
              > that even genuine
              > > specimens can look like they're counterfeits.
              > >
              > > On balance, I would still say that both of them
              > are probably mint
              > > products. Of course, they are intentional errors
              > that were
              > probably
              > > hand-fed into the press.
              > >
              > > A lot of the striking errors being offered look
              > authentic. The 10
              > > sen struck on 20 sen planchet I purchased earlier
              > looks authentic.
              > >
              > > The two-obverse sen with one flattened face
              > suggests that the
              > > fabricators had trouble making a hammer die
              > function as the anvil
              > > die, probably owing to the different lengths of
              > the die necks. So
              > > they found another way to make a "two-obverse
              > coin". The coin
              > > resembles the double-struck "two-tailed quarter"
              > we discussed some
              > > months back that was in an NGC slab. That one,
              > too, had one
              > > flattened face. We discussed at least three ways
              > this could have
              > > been produced.
              > >
              > > These coins are best treated -- and purchased --
              > as novelty items,
              > in
              > > my opinion.
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • byersnc
              Mike D.- you re right when you said The problem with some of these third world mints is that the planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made that even
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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                Mike D.- you're right when you said "The problem with some of these
                third world mints is that the planchets and dies are sometimes so
                poorly made that even genuine specimens can look like they're
                counterfeits".

                Tailand is notorious for the worst looking genuine 2 headed and 2
                tailed errors- they really do look bad, but some are good. But be
                careful since there are many fake Tailand errors out there.

                Mike Byers
                http://mikebyers.com




                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                > The problem with some of these third world mints is that the
                > planchets and dies are sometimes so poorly made that even genuine
                > specimens can look like they're counterfeits.
              • Mike Diamond
                Thanks, Mike. I ran into my own fake Thai error coin some years back. A reputable dealer insisted it was legit. At least I only blew $25 on it. Ken Potter
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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                  Thanks, Mike. I ran into my own fake Thai error coin some years
                  back. A reputable dealer insisted it was legit. At least I only
                  blew $25 on it. Ken Potter has written an article on fakes from
                  Thailand.

                  Presuming it's genuine, the two-obverse 1 sen coin could be:

                  1. Struck by two obverse dies and then a second in-collar uniface
                  strike. (Not likely in my opinion).

                  2. Two in-collar uniface strikes, flipped over in between. (The most
                  likely scenario, in my opinion).

                  3. A normal strike, then a flipover, in-collar uniface strike that
                  wipes out the first design on one face. (Not likely since the second
                  strike is weak and would have left a lot of the original design).

                  Probably just an attempt to get a companion to go with the die-struck
                  two-reverse coin. Interesting, if only as an illustration of how
                  there's more than one way to get a coin with two identical faces.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mike D.- you're right when you said "The problem with some of these
                  > third world mints is that the planchets and dies are sometimes so
                  > poorly made that even genuine specimens can look like they're
                  > counterfeits".
                  >
                  > Tailand is notorious for the worst looking genuine 2 headed and 2
                  > tailed errors- they really do look bad, but some are good. But be
                  > careful since there are many fake Tailand errors out there.
                  >
                  > Mike Byers
                  > http://mikebyers.com
                • byersnc
                  I ve seen better quality on ancient gold errors than on some of these 3rd world countries. Like this gold ancient struck over a brockage!! It s well centered,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 23, 2006
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                    I've seen better quality on ancient gold errors than on some of
                    these 3rd world countries. Like this gold ancient struck over a
                    brockage!! It's well centered, in gem condition, with full strike
                    and luster, and puts some world mints to shame!!

                    http://www.byersnc.com/ebay/2054420101e.jpg

                    Mike Byers
                    http://mikebyers.com

                    ------------------------------------------------------------



                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks, Mike. I ran into my own fake Thai error coin some years
                    > back. A reputable dealer insisted it was legit. At least I only
                    > blew $25 on it. Ken Potter has written an article on fakes from
                    > Thailand.
                    >
                    > Presuming it's genuine, the two-obverse 1 sen coin could be:
                    >
                    > 1. Struck by two obverse dies and then a second in-collar uniface
                    > strike. (Not likely in my opinion).
                    >
                    > 2. Two in-collar uniface strikes, flipped over in between. (The
                    most
                    > likely scenario, in my opinion).
                    >
                    > 3. A normal strike, then a flipover, in-collar uniface strike that
                    > wipes out the first design on one face. (Not likely since the
                    second
                    > strike is weak and would have left a lot of the original design).
                    >
                    > Probably just an attempt to get a companion to go with the die-
                    struck
                    > two-reverse coin. Interesting, if only as an illustration of how
                    > there's more than one way to get a coin with two identical faces.
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Mike D.- you're right when you said "The problem with some of
                    these
                    > > third world mints is that the planchets and dies are sometimes
                    so
                    > > poorly made that even genuine specimens can look like they're
                    > > counterfeits".
                    > >
                    > > Tailand is notorious for the worst looking genuine 2 headed and
                    2
                    > > tailed errors- they really do look bad, but some are good. But
                    be
                    > > careful since there are many fake Tailand errors out there.
                    > >
                    > > Mike Byers
                    > > http://mikebyers.com
                    >
                  • Mike Diamond
                    I ve placed in the mules album pictures of the double-obverse and double-reverse 1 sen coin I talked about earlier. The double-reverse coin is die-struck on
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 26, 2006
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                      I've placed in the "mules" album pictures of the double-obverse and
                      double-reverse 1 sen coin I talked about earlier.

                      The double-reverse coin is die-struck on both faces. Despite the
                      cruddy appearance of one face, I suspect this is a mint product
                      produced by enterprising employees.

                      The double-obverse coin is double-struck and is probably a false mule.
                      Two uniface strikes with a flipover in between would account for the
                      flattened face on one side.

                      Not the prettiest of intentional errors, but worth keeping for the
                      price I paid (about $65 each).
                    • byersnc
                      Mike D.- this error was still a rip- great deal. Mike Byers http://mikebyers.com ... mule.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 26, 2006
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                        Mike D.- this error was still a rip- great deal.

                        Mike Byers
                        http://mikebyers.com






                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've placed in the "mules" album pictures of the double-obverse and
                        > double-reverse 1 sen coin I talked about earlier.
                        >
                        > The double-reverse coin is die-struck on both faces. Despite the
                        > cruddy appearance of one face, I suspect this is a mint product
                        > produced by enterprising employees.
                        >
                        > The double-obverse coin is double-struck and is probably a false
                        mule.
                        > Two uniface strikes with a flipover in between would account for the
                        > flattened face on one side.
                        >
                        > Not the prettiest of intentional errors, but worth keeping for the
                        > price I paid (about $65 each).
                        >
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