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Re: [equineveterinarymedicine] Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.

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  • Barbara Blizzard
    I would also say it depends on keeping the manure piles under control in the pasture too. I have read that report. It is only one report and their limited
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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      I would also say it depends on keeping the manure piles under control in the pasture too. I have read that report. It is only one report and their limited opinion. I think it is a waste of money to buy dewormers at 15.00 a pop and not know what worm you are fighting. None of the wormer get rid 100%. They only bring it down below the magic number of being safe. You do need to do a fecal test on all of them. Heart worm is different, that you need to worm for on its own. But the 6 week rotation is for the birds or Manufacture's pockets. I received a young horse riddled with every kind of worm. He was 6. Worms were coming out in fecal. I did a Fecal test then Panacure blast (5 days). Then put him on DE. Next year.Nothing when I did the fecal test. This year nothing on the fecal test. He has not been wormed for the 2 years, but I made sure I picked up every ones poop! The De kills the eggs in the gut and makes their system a hostile environment to live on due
      to it's sharp edges.  I do not recommend most wormers other than Panacure on the market, They have bad or evil drug that make the worm resistant and play havoc with the environment. I almost lost a dog giving Quest when it first came out. I hate bring this up but would you eat your horse if it was riddle with wormers? How would you know? The label says don't consume the animal if� using their product.

      Barb
    • Kaci
      I too use DE with my horses and get twice a year or more fecals done. IF I have to use a wormer I know which one to use...no “guesswork”. I have not had
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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        I too use DE with my horses and get twice a year or more fecals done. IF I have to use a wormer I know which one to use...no “guesswork”. I have not had to use a dewormer on my adult horses in over a year. Newbies and young ones get it at first then I let the Vet decided when I have them run Fecals. I also use a supplement that has DE in it. I use DE on and with my chickens, goats, cats and dogs. I use it in my garden too. ~Kaci
      • Patricia Meyer
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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        • protector_teague
          Barb, This is a forum for horse owners and veterinary professionals to discuss topics related to equine health. The sort of behavior in your last post isn t
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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            Barb,
            This is a forum for horse owners and veterinary professionals to discuss topics related to equine health. The sort of behavior in your last post isn't appreciated.

            Cindy Dittmar, RVT
            Board Moderator

            --- In equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com, byrd968@... wrote:
            >
            > Thank you for your reply, Cindy!
            >
            >
            > You have no idea how much money I have wasted on the D. earth, (and shipping / traveling to find it). There is so much pressure to be green, or to treat your horse all natural, or that hippie swore to me it would work. It's good to know that I can just stick to a deworming schedule and know I am doing the best.
            >
            >
            > (I do a fecal and sand check once a year in the spring, to get an idea of what is in there)
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ryle <Ryle@...>
            > To: equineveterinarymedicine <equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wed, Mar 20, 2013 7:29 am
            > Subject: RE: [equineveterinarymedicine] Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Texas A&M university did a preliminary study several years ago on the efficacy of DE for parasites in horses and saw no results from it’s use.
            >
            > Rather than spending money on a product that is not proven effective, you would be better off to invest in a strategic deworming plan. Which will minimize your deworming while still providing protection for your horses.
            >
            > Most adult horses only need to be dewormed twice a year because about ½ of them will have a good resistance to small strongyles and will control those parasites with minimal chemical intervention and many more are simply kept in conditions that minimize parasite loads. Only about 20% of adult horses don’t have a good resistance and will carry high parasite loads. The reasoning for the twice a year dewormings is because there are parasites that are seasonal and will not show up on fecal exams and because twice yearly is sufficient to prevent large strongyle issues. These two “standard dewormings” should be with either ivermectin or moxidectin and praziquantel. Then other dewormings should be performed only after fecal egg counts show moderate to high parasite loads.
            >
            > Foals and weanlings need a different approach to protect them because they are at much higher risk for parasites than adult horses. They do not develop the immunity to ascarids that adults do until they are over a year old and these parasites are extremely hardy in the environment and can be very dangerous for the young horses. Foals need to be dewormed regularly with proven effective drugs for this reason.
            >
            > You can find good information on strategic deworming at www.thehorse.com.
            > http://www.thehorse.com/videos/webcasts/30770/strategic-deworming
            > http://www.thehorse.com/articles/25179/deworming-young-horses-when-to-start
            >
            >
            > Cindy D.
            > Registered Veterinary Technician
            >
            >
            >
            > From: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tamara dirrim
            > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 8:56 PM
            > To: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [equineveterinarymedicine] Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.
            >
          • protector_teague
            So, in the instance that Barb describes with her horses, the powerpac cleared the current parasite load and the fecal removal explains her continual
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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              So, in the instance that Barb describes with her horses, the "powerpac" cleared the current parasite load and the fecal removal explains her continual extremely low parasite loads. The same results would very likely be seen if she weren't using DE. Fecal removal is the single most important thing you can do to minimize parasite reinfection rates because you minimize the parasite load on pastures. There are plenty of studies to prove this point. Just by picking up feces every 2-3 days you can minimize parasite reinfection rates to the point that you may only rarely find parasite eggs on a fecal egg count. One example: Herd RP: Parasite hygiene: a nonchemical approach to equine endoparasite control. Modern Equine Practice 1986:36-38.

              As for the comments about the other dewormers being bad or evil drugs, that is bunk. The drugs on the market have all been proven safe when used as recommended. The label says don't eat an animal that has been dewormed with the different products because then you would be ingesting an unknown amount of the drug and therefore they can't guarantee safety. Yes, anti-parasitic agents are going to have some affect on the environment because they don't just affect a single species of organism but with careful and appropriate use the benefits out-weigh the possible adverse results. For example, choosing moxidectin over ivermectin for spring dewormings helps to protect the dung beetles in the environment while still allowing you to treat for bots which are seasonal and large strongyles.

              The topic of parasite resistance is a major one. The idea that it's the drugs other than Panacur (fenbendazole) that have caused all of the resistance issues is ridiculous in the extreme. It is the years and years of use of the drugs on the market, often at inappropriate intervals and doses that has lead to resistance. (Barb is right, the deworming every 6 weeks routine is incorrect and is in fact one of the reasons for resistance.) Parasites have been subjected to drugs at levels and times for so many years when that drug wouldn't effectively kill the and through repeat exposure they have developed a resistance to the drugs most commonly used. Ivermectin and moxidectin are currently the two broad spectrum deworming drugs on the market with the least resistance issues.

              Fenbendazole is, in fact, the deworming drug with the most issues with resistant parasites because is has been used for so long and so wrong. This fact make it one of the last choices for a drug to use in adult horses where your main parasite of concern is small strongyles which have been shown to be resistant to it in more than 90% of areas tested world-wide.

              Here is single study on parasite resistance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18470536
              There are many others. If you go to pubmed and search for yourself you can read for hours.

              The reason for deworming in spring and fall with ivermectin or moxidectin and a praziquantel are because there are parasites that do not show up on a fecal that should be addressed. Bots and tapeworms are the ones most commonly thought of.

              And finally, horses do not get dewormed against Heartworms. Heartworms are a parasite of dogs and cats.

              Cindy Dittmar, RVT

              --- In equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Blizzard <barbblizzard@...> wrote:
              >
              > I would also say it depends on keeping the manure piles under control in the pasture too. I have read that report. It is only one report and their limited opinion. I think it is a waste of money to buy dewormers at 15.00 a pop and not know what worm you are fighting. None of the wormer get rid 100%. They only bring it down below the magic number of being safe. You do need to do a fecal test on all of them. Heart worm is different, that you need to worm for on its own. But the 6 week rotation is for the birds or Manufacture's pockets. I received a young horse riddled with every kind of worm. He was 6. Worms were coming out in fecal. I did a Fecal test then Panacure blast (5 days). Then put him on DE. Next year.Nothing when I did the fecal test. This year nothing on the fecal test. He has not been wormed for the 2 years, but I made sure I picked up every ones poop! The De kills the eggs in the gut and makes their system a hostile environment to live on due
              > to it's sharp edges.  I do not recommend most wormers other than Panacure on the market, They have bad or evil drug that make the worm resistant and play havoc with the environment. I almost lost a dog giving Quest when it first came out. I hate bring this up but would you eat your horse if it was riddle with wormers? How would you know? The label says don't consume the animal if  using their product.
              >
              > Barb
              >
            • Kaci
              This is good to know, and I had no idea that tapeworms cant be detected in a fecal! When is it best to deworm for tapeworms? Since it is from ingesting
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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                This is good to know, and I had no idea that tapeworms cant be detected in a
                fecal! When is it best to deworm for tapeworms? Since it is from
                ingesting fleas and or eggs then it seems like tapeworms would be a year
                round problem. Arent Bots seasonal? I'm in SW Idaho and was under the
                impression that Bot flies infect during warmer climate and therefore Fall is
                the best time to deworm for Bots....is this wrong? I know the schedules
                differ with different climates, so this can be confusing.
                I know many people who use Smartpac and love it, but was unsure of a daily
                dewormer and building resistance. ~Kaci


                -----Original Message-----
                From: protector_teague
                Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:17 PM
                To: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [equineveterinarymedicine] Re: Diatomaceous Earth and worming
                horses.

                So, in the instance that Barb describes with her horses, the "powerpac"
                cleared the current parasite load and the fecal removal explains her
                continual extremely low parasite loads. The same results would very likely
                be seen if she weren't using DE. Fecal removal is the single most
                important thing you can do to minimize parasite reinfection rates because
                you minimize the parasite load on pastures. There are plenty of studies to
                prove this point. Just by picking up feces every 2-3 days you can minimize
                parasite reinfection rates to the point that you may only rarely find
                parasite eggs on a fecal egg count. One example: Herd RP: Parasite hygiene:
                a nonchemical approach to equine endoparasite control. Modern Equine
                Practice 1986:36-38.

                As for the comments about the other dewormers being bad or evil drugs, that
                is bunk. The drugs on the market have all been proven safe when used as
                recommended. The label says don't eat an animal that has been dewormed with
                the different products because then you would be ingesting an unknown amount
                of the drug and therefore they can't guarantee safety. Yes,
                anti-parasitic agents are going to have some affect on the environment
                because they don't just affect a single species of organism but with careful
                and appropriate use the benefits out-weigh the possible adverse results.
                For example, choosing moxidectin over ivermectin for spring dewormings helps
                to protect the dung beetles in the environment while still allowing you to
                treat for bots which are seasonal and large strongyles.

                The topic of parasite resistance is a major one. The idea that it's the
                drugs other than Panacur (fenbendazole) that have caused all of the
                resistance issues is ridiculous in the extreme. It is the years and years
                of use of the drugs on the market, often at inappropriate intervals and
                doses that has lead to resistance. (Barb is right, the deworming every 6
                weeks routine is incorrect and is in fact one of the reasons for
                resistance.) Parasites have been subjected to drugs at levels and times
                for so many years when that drug wouldn't effectively kill the and through
                repeat exposure they have developed a resistance to the drugs most commonly
                used. Ivermectin and moxidectin are currently the two broad spectrum
                deworming drugs on the market with the least resistance issues.

                Fenbendazole is, in fact, the deworming drug with the most issues with
                resistant parasites because is has been used for so long and so wrong.
                This fact make it one of the last choices for a drug to use in adult horses
                where your main parasite of concern is small strongyles which have been
                shown to be resistant to it in more than 90% of areas tested world-wide.

                Here is single study on parasite resistance:
                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18470536
                There are many others. If you go to pubmed and search for yourself you can
                read for hours.

                The reason for deworming in spring and fall with ivermectin or moxidectin
                and a praziquantel are because there are parasites that do not show up on a
                fecal that should be addressed. Bots and tapeworms are the ones most
                commonly thought of.

                And finally, horses do not get dewormed against Heartworms. Heartworms are
                a parasite of dogs and cats.

                Cindy Dittmar, RVT
              • Barbara Blizzard
                I did nothing wrong but to express my use of De as a fellow horse owner and what does work and not work because many people get the idea that more is better.
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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                  I did nothing wrong but to express my use of De as a fellow horse owner and what does work and not work because many people get the idea that more is better. If you took it the wrong way, you said it was an open forum. I am concern that people do not look at all aspects parasite. There are right and wrong ways to do it. I am of the holistic approach. So to clear the air then one should use Silver Lining. Their dewormer #13 worm foe works great which  is recognized by the veterinarian will work very well.

                  Description Active Ingredients:A proprietary blend of (Garlic, Cascara, Clove, Kelp, Sage, Slippery Elm,
                  Black Walnut, Chaparral and Juniper) 7560 mg per tbsp. Scoop included.
                  Inactive Ingredients:NONE
                  Recommended use:1 level scoop per day for 10 days,
                  for 1000-1200 lb horse. There are approximately 60 scoops per 1 lb bag, and 15 scoops per 1/4 lb bag.
                  Available sizes: E13-1 1 lb re-sealable foil bag EK13 1⁄4 lb re-sealable foil bag

                  Barb



                  ________________________________
                  From: protector_teague <Ryle@...>
                  To: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 3:08 PM
                  Subject: [equineveterinarymedicine] Re: Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.


                  Barb,
                  This is a forum for horse owners and veterinary professionals to discuss topics related to equine health. The sort of behavior in your last post isn't appreciated.

                  Cindy Dittmar, RVT
                  Board Moderator

                  --- In equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com, byrd968@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for your reply, Cindy!
                  >
                  >
                  > You have no idea how much money I have wasted on the D. earth, (and shipping / traveling to find it). There is so much pressure to be green, or to treat your horse all natural, or that hippie swore to me it would work. It's good to know that I can just stick to a deworming schedule and know I am doing the best.
                  >
                  >
                  > (I do a fecal and sand check once a year in the spring, to get an idea of what is in there)
                  >
                  >
                • susan price
                  I do believe that manure disposal is also a very important part in worming your animals. It is something I did all the time up to the time I got hurt 2 years
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 20, 2013
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                    I do believe that manure disposal is also a very important part in worming your animals. It is something I did all the time up to the time I got hurt 2 years ago. i would have liked to continue that practice but I can't find help out here too rural.� Many things come into play in parasite control. If i ever suspected an animal was wormy i wouldn't hesitate to get a commercial wormer on board. good topic to over view now and then Sue in Il



                    ________________________________
                    From: protector_teague <Ryle@...>
                    To: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:17 PM
                    Subject: [equineveterinarymedicine] Re: Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.

                    So, in the instance that Barb describes with her horses, the "powerpac" cleared the current parasite load and the fecal removal explains her continual extremely low parasite loads. The same results would very likely be seen if she weren't using DE. Fecal removal is the single most important thing you can do to minimize parasite reinfection rates because you minimize the parasite load on pastures. There are plenty of studies to prove this point. Just by picking up feces every 2-3 days you can minimize parasite reinfection rates to the point that you may only rarely find parasite eggs on a fecal egg count. One example: Herd RP: Parasite hygiene: a nonchemical approach to equine endoparasite control. Modern Equine Practice 1986:36-38.

                    As for the comments about the other dewormers being bad or evil drugs, that is bunk. The drugs on the market have all been proven safe when used as recommended. The label says don't eat an animal that has been dewormed with the different products because then you would be ingesting an unknown amount of the drug and therefore they can't guarantee safety. Yes, anti-parasitic agents are going to have some affect on the environment because they don't just affect a single species of organism but with careful and appropriate use the benefits out-weigh the possible adverse results. For example, choosing moxidectin over ivermectin for spring dewormings helps to protect the dung beetles in the environment while still allowing you to treat for bots which are seasonal and large strongyles.

                    The topic of parasite resistance is a major one. The idea that it's the drugs other than Panacur (fenbendazole) that have caused all of the resistance issues is ridiculous in the extreme. It is the years and years of use of the drugs on the market, often at inappropriate intervals and doses that has lead to resistance. (Barb is right, the deworming every 6 weeks routine is incorrect and is in fact one of the reasons for resistance.) Parasites have been subjected to drugs at levels and times for so many years when that drug wouldn't effectively kill the and through repeat exposure they have developed a resistance to the drugs most commonly used. Ivermectin and moxidectin are currently the two broad spectrum deworming drugs on the market with the least resistance issues.

                    Fenbendazole is, in fact, the deworming drug with the most issues with resistant parasites because is has been used for so long and so wrong. This fact make it one of the last choices for a drug to use in adult horses where your main parasite of concern is small strongyles which have been shown to be resistant to it in more than 90% of areas tested world-wide.

                    Here is single study on parasite resistance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18470536
                    There are many others. If you go to pubmed and search for yourself you can read for hours.

                    The reason for deworming in spring and fall with ivermectin or moxidectin and a praziquantel are because there are parasites that do not show up on a fecal that should be addressed. Bots and tapeworms are the ones most commonly thought of.

                    And finally, horses do not get dewormed against Heartworms. Heartworms are a parasite of dogs and cats.

                    Cindy Dittmar, RVT

                    --- In mailto:equineveterinarymedicine%40yahoogroups.com, Barbara B
                    >
                    > I would also say it depends on keeping the manure piles under control in the pasture too. I have read that report. It is only one report and their limited opinion. I think it is a waste of money to buy dewormers at 15.00 a pop and not know what worm you are fighting. None of the wormer get rid 100%. They only bring it down below the magic number of being safe. You do need to do a fecal test on all of them. Heart worm is different, that you need to worm for on its own. But the 6 week rotation is for the birds or Manufacture's pockets. I received a young horse riddled with every kind of worm. He was 6. Worms were coming out in fecal. I did a Fecal test then Panacure blast (5 days). Then put him on DE. Next year.Nothing when I did the fecal test. This year nothing on the fecal test. He has not been wormed for the 2 years, but I made sure I picked up every ones poop! The De kills the eggs in the gut and makes their system a hostile environment to live on due to it's sharp edges.� I do not recommend most wormers other than Panacure on the market, They have bad or evil drug that make the worm resistant and play havoc with the environment. I almost lost a dog giving Quest when it first came out. I hate bring this up but would you eat your horse if it was riddled with wormers? How would you know? The label says don't consume the animal if� using their product.
                    >
                    > Barb
                    >
                  • infinityacresva
                    Those of you that are using DE: are you giving free choice or dosing? How often? Do you use topically as well? Laura
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 21, 2013
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                      Those of you that are using DE: are you giving free choice or dosing? How often? Do you use topically as well?

                      Laura
                    • tamara dirrim
                      Wow, Thanks to everyone for posting on this. This is why I wanted to question the useage of D.E. I have read some on the internet, and talked to this friend
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 21, 2013
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                        Wow, Thanks to everyone for posting on this.

                        This is why I wanted to question the useage of D.E. I have read some on the internet, and talked to this friend of mine about it. I didn't feel I had enough information on it to decide one way or the other. I try to keep up with the information on the regular chemical dewormers, and had heard that you could go to just a couple of wormings a year. Is there an article that shows currently the best dewormers and when to use them?

                        I currently have 12 horses, and only a 2 year old that gets grain at this time. Everyone else it out in pasture situations with round bales of hay. So a daily or twice daily feeding of anything wouldn't really work for my situation.
                        I know after reading these post that I have some more researching and
                        learning to do, to see if I can change how often I deworm my heard, as that would help with expense. I have a closed farm, in that I don't have many outside horses that come into contact with mine, and that is usually controlled when they do come onto the farm.

                        Thanks so much for the information, and if you know of any other articles, please share them and I will continue my research and learning.
                        Tam
                        Owner and breeder.
                        Indiana
                      • susan price
                        i have a free choice bin in each pasture and paddock.  I do feed 2xday on those getting grained. sue in il ________________________________ From:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 21, 2013
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                          i have a free choice bin in each pasture and paddock.  I do feed 2xday on those getting grained. sue in il

                          From: infinityacresva <infinityacresva@...>
                          To: equineveterinarymedicine@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:59 AM
                          Subject: Re: [equineveterinarymedicine] Diatomaceous Earth and worming horses.

                          Those of you that are using DE: are you giving free choice or dosing? How often? Do you use topically as well?

                          Laura


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                        • Barbara Blizzard
                          There was only one wormer for tapeworms that my Vet wanted me to use. EquiMax gold (?)   Barb Blizzard ____
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 21, 2013
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                            There was only one wormer for tapeworms that my Vet wanted me to use. EquiMax gold (?)


                             
                            Barb Blizzard




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