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[epigraphy] Re: The Kensington stone IS fake

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  • Geir Odden
    ... I wonder why the Norse must have had colonies and a trade relation with the Indians because of birch bark canoes ? There has been speculations about Norse
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 24, 2000
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      Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:

      > > The native Americans had very good canoes made of birch bark. I had the
      > > opportunity to paddle a re-created war canoe that held 16 people. It was
      > > incredibly light on the water, stable, and fast. It was light enough for
      > > four people to carry. I am sure the vikings would have been able to secure
      > > some
      > > of these canoes for their inland travels. The French fur traders used
      > > similar canoes for trips into Minnesota for many years, and were able to
      > > transport
      > > very large cargoes of furs in them.
      >
      > Oui! This however implies a lot. The Nordic people must have had colonies and a
      > trade relation with the Indians.

      I wonder why the Norse must have had colonies and a trade relation with
      the Indians because of birch bark canoes ?
      There has been speculations about Norse influences in the shape of the
      Algonquin canoe because of its shape which reminds of a Norse ship.
      You can see one canoe with this shape at this url:
      http://www.canoe.ca/AllAboutCanoes/canoe_history.html

      > As a followup question to your letter I would
      > like to ask the list whether anyone have heard anything about archeological
      > evidences of this trade. That is: has anything more than possible coins been
      > found? Like iron axes?

      The Beardsmore found from Ontario was an genuine Norse axe, sword and
      pieces of chain mail, but the rumours said it was planted by an Norwegian
      emigrant. Eaven Helge Ingstad wrote about this found.
      I think at least the sword is one of the swords they got at The Royal
      Ontario Museum.
      Re: http://www.rom.on.ca/art-design/europe/wacollections.html
      (The post Classical collection includes Canada's largest collection of
      Medieval swords, among them four of the Viking era)

      Geir Odden
    • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
      The report from the professors do pretty much coincide with my view, the example of the 19th century words that are used at the KS like opdagelseferd and lager
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 24, 2000
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        The report from the professors do pretty much coincide with my view, the example
        of the 19th century words that are used at the KS like opdagelseferd and lager is
        correct. However, there are much more to say about the grammar. I will give some
        examples of this in a coming e-mail.

        On the artefacts. The examples given on findings in archeological sites are
        interesting. Please give some sources so I can check for myself.

        Best Wishes!

        /Torbjörn
        Stockholm




        "You are in good company. The Smithsonian will present
        the KRS as an example of fake Viking artifact in America in
        their Viking exhibition starting in April.
        I also recommend those of you which didn't read the Icelandic
        professors interpretion of the KRS to do so at:
        http://www.egroups.com/group/epigraphy/2229.html"
      • michael zalar
        ... This was by no means an ordinary journey, rather it was quite extrordinary. By command of King Magnus in October of 1354, Paul Knutson was given command of
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 24, 2000
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          >From: Europeiska Arbetarpartiet <eap@...>

          >TO ZALAR:
          >
          >The journey in 1364 you mention is interesting the only question is if this
          >was a regular journey to Greenland or not and if there were a large colony
          >somewhere on American ground. If not, I hardly think that they were able to
          >gather strength for explorative journeys. As I said before: the question is
          >howevera permanent colony existed in America (Hudson bay!!!) or not.
          >

          This was by no means an ordinary journey, rather it was quite extrordinary.
          By command of King Magnus in October of 1354, Paul Knutson was given command
          of the knorr for this expedition, as well as to select "from my bodyguard or
          other men's attendants or of other men whom you may induce to go with you"
          -and as previously noted this included a navigator from England. I would
          imagine that such a mission would be fully supplied from the start, and able
          to requisition supplies as well, fully capable of handling a number of
          difficult situations.




          >On the coastal ship for 30 people. It is impossible that such a ship (a
          >Knarr???) could have made it on a river and on land. It must have been a
          >smaller ship! And local labour was often used to aid the travellers on
          >their >journeys in todays Russia (According to arabic writers!).
          >

          I'm sorry, I apparently did not make the point clearly here. I discussed
          the building of this ship (the Helga Holm) and inquired as whether such a
          ship could have been build over the course of a winter
          using native pine and a ships carpenter tools. As the builder of this
          larger ship answered yes, I assumed that smaller boats could have been build
          by the expedition over the course of a winter if they camped at the mouth of
          the Nelson. No trade with natives would have been necessary.


          >On the runes. I still have to check the Codex Runius. It would be
          >interesting >to see if these runes (two!) that occur in the KS exists there
          >and is used in the same way. But the runes still differ much from the
          >middle age system.
          >

          At one time the runes of the KRS were compared favorably with modern runes
          from Dalarna. I do not have the references in front of me, but did discuss
          this earlier in another list. If you will permit me to quote myself:

          "The idea that the runes might have been from Dalarna initially comes from
          Prof Noreen in 1906. Noreen uses a table of 22 different rune rows from
          Dalarna - I am looking at the same rune rows as I work on this. I note some
          13 differences between the runes on the Kenstington stone and those on the
          Dalarna table.
          About half of these are similar enough that a forger could have made some
          minor variations to the Dalarna runes simply to make them different. The
          /e/ rune, for example has a stem and a short crossbar on the Kensington
          stone. The Dalarna runes show no such crossbar on any of the 22 rune rows,
          and in a majority of the case show a bar angled down to one side or the
          other. A forger could have conceivably 'tweaked' the Dalarna rune to come up
          with the rune as found on the KRS.
          Other differneces cannot be so easily explained. The /p/ rune is shown in
          the KRS as something like a Latin B, with a seperation between the loops.
          In two of the Dalarna rows, the /p/ rune is shown like a Latin P. In six of
          the rune rows it is a stem with crossbar, and vertical lines at either end
          of the bar, rather like a trident. The /s/ rune on the KRS has a lightning
          bolt shape, and while this shape is found in the Dalarna runes it is used
          for the letter X. The /g/, /u/, and /y/ runes are totally dissimilar to the
          runes on the Dalarna table; it could by no means have been used to make the
          Kensington stone.
          There is a far better match between the KRS runes and those of Gotland (per
          Friesen, Runes of Sweden (1928) Fig 48), as well as those of the Codex
          Runicus of Scanian Law (circa 1300-1317). There are only 9 differnces
          between the Gotland runes and the KRS, and 8 between the KRS and the Scanian
          Law runes.
          Most of these require only simple changes; the /g/ rune is reversed on the
          KRS from either the Gotland and Scanian Law runes, the /v/ rune uses two
          curves on the right of the stem (with a dot), while the KRS has one curve to
          the left and one to the right, with the dot in the left hand curve. Only 3
          have major differnces.
          It is quite interesting to note that the rune which has commonly been
          translated as a /j/ and so has thought to have been invented by a forger,
          has an exact match in the Scanian Law, as /yl/ changing skjar to skylar in
          the text of the inscription.
          In short, the Kensington runes match far better the runes of the period than
          those of 18th and 19th centruy Dalarna.
          In regards to the o-umlaut rune, while there is some similarity between the
          Dalarna and the KRS runes (I counted this as one of the 'similar' runes
          above), it is equally similar to the Greenland Kingigtorssuaq stone circa
          1330. "

          There are differnces between the KRS runes and those of most standard
          futhorks, but there seem to be differences between what one person says is
          'standard' and another. If you include the Kingigtorssuaq stone, only two
          of the runes on the KRS differ substantially from the runes of the period.
          Possibly these runes were influenced from Greenland, from which we have few
          examples.




          >The grammar is still lousy. I hardly think that an explorer in 1360:s would
          >write like some kind of middle age postmodernist that does not care about
          >how to use a language. The word in question was used in german, and (I
          >think) dutch. But the question is still. Combined with all other strange
          >oddities in the text, the use of the word becomes very odd. Why did�nt the
          >assumed KS writer use a latin word or the contemporary scandinavian
          >word(s). Was he of German origin???
          >

          Possibly the word was in use among Scandinavian sailors at that time, and
          later fell out of favor without finding its way into any texts. I believe
          that the 14th century was a time of great linguistic change, and this
          certainly could have occured during this difficult period.
          Nielsen suggests that the thorn rune, used as /d/ should actually have taken
          the /t/ sound here rendering the root word uptage = acquistion, eithr of
          land or of trading goods. Either seems acceptable, and as I noted the
          former was acceptable to Soderlund.

          >On exploration and king Magnus? As far as I remember he was involved in a
          >fight with the Hanseatic league at the time (1360:s) and the league cut off
          >much of the trade with Iceland. The league had, by using a kind of
          >"technological aparthaid" tried to stop the use of "modern" boats in all
          >Scandinavia (to get monopoly on the trade!)
          >

          If so, all the more reason to try to open up new routes to China, either
          through Russian (where he had fought) or to the West. Either would be able
          to break the trade problems created by the Hanse

          >On the blue blooded families. I am talking mainly about financiers families
          >like Dupont at the time. many foreries has been used for economical and
          >political reason in the history of mankind. However, if the stone was
          >wethered
          >like you say, then the matter is different!
          >
          >TO CONCLUDE:
          >
          >I wonder if someone can recommend a good book with ALL known "runic"
          >inscriptions in America (with photos!!!). Just because I believe the KS to
          >be
          >false, all others do not have to be it. I think that runic inscriptions do
          >exist in America, just as such has been found on Greenland and on Iceland.
          >
          >/Torbj�rn Jerlerup
          >
          >

          I understand your qualms about the linguistic features of the stone - while
          difficult I do not think they are impossible. I might suggest that you read
          a few articles that rebut some of the claims against the stone (I can mail
          you some if you like). Off the top of my head I can think of Fossum,
          Holand, S.N Hagen, Thalbitzer, Hall, and Nielsen who have written favorably
          about the language.

          I think that the 'errors' language is also something of a two edged sword,
          while it can cut against the stone, it also cuts against the idea of a
          forgery.
          For instace 'from' is frequently given as an incorrect word, a proof of
          forgery. However, we find twice previously in the stone the correct word
          'fro'. A forger would not have used the incorrect word when he knew the
          correct one, a sin which might be forgivable to a 14th century inscriber
          working phoneticaly.
          Likewise 'po'("correct") and 'pa'("incorrect") are used for the same word as
          well as 'og' and 'ok' (both correct). It is absurd that a forger would use
          these duplicate spellings for the same word within the document.
          I am sure other examples can be found where a forger would not have made the
          choices shown in the KRS, and such errors made by the forger also need to be
          explained. Any methedology in examining the linguistics of the stone must
          include that as well. (and i do not believe that an in depth methedological
          examination of the KRS has been done).



          Michael A. Zalar
          179 E. Thompson Ave #1
          West St. Paul, MN 55118

          651-457-8860
          m_zalar@...

          www.krs1362.cjb.net

          ______________________________________________________
        • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
          Hi Zalar and all other! On the the expedition by king Magnus. I still have not found the exact source for the information. What book is the note about the
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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            Hi Zalar and all other!

            On the the expedition by king Magnus. I still have not found the exact source
            for the information. What book is the note about the expedition from? (that is:
            what original book from the 14:th or 15.th century)?

            The question is however still whether the leaders of the economically
            devastated union between Sweden and Norway could have decided to do something
            that, as far as we know, had not been done since around 1000, that is some kind
            of "exploration" or was it a "regular" journey to Iceland and Greenland.
            (Perhaps the first official journey since before the great plague hit the area
            some years before.)

            The 14:th century sea farers were no wikings. Much of the curiousity of the
            wikings had disappeared and would not appear in Europe until the portuguese
            leaders under Henry the navigator started the project to explore Africa.


            On the language.

            As one writer said. the question is not if some words are wrong and other words
            correct. The overall structure and content of the KS contains a lot of
            spellings, etc, which cannot be found in the scandinavian languages of the
            time. I even claimed that there are hundreds of things that can be said to be
            strange about the text. Let me explain a bit why.

            * The runes: The L-rune is, as far as I understand it, used as a J in the text
            (as well as L, I think). In the Codex Runicus it is used as an L in some
            instances. Then there are about 5 (? I dont have a good picture of the stone
            next to me!) cases of umlaut, dots over a and o(unheard of until the 16:th
            century!!!), while the ae form that DID exist (as an offspring of e, not a, in
            for example in the Codex Runicus) is not in the text. About four cases of
            numbers written in a form that never has been found outside the KS. Then there
            is are some cases of use of carachters which could have been used (in theory)
            and which has occured once or twice. The best example of this is the strange
            use of [fl] as the first syllable of [ded]. In old norse the verb for die is
            [deyja] not fleyja] which means that the [tl] should not be there. The use of V
            (in for example Vinland) is also strange, to say the least. Normally an U
            should have been used (up until the 16.th and 17:th century U was used instead
            of V in many words like hafuer which became hafver). The dubble R in Norrmen is
            doubtful. But the most strange case is actually O. Like in po (by the way, why
            is the P not stinged???). That particuar rune changed 300 years before to
            denote a instead of o/å. O.k. some cases of o/å can be found after 1100, but
            very few.

            Etc, etc. Should we sum this. There are about... Well 5+4+1 etc: lets say 30 to
            40 things which are strange with the runic text (probably more!!!)!

            * The words and the spelling. We have some modern words in the KS like
            opdagelseferd, lager (imported to scandinavia from the dutch 300 years after
            (!) the KS), rise, etc. then we have the strange spelling like norrmen (was
            spelled like nor>ma>r), norr fro (should be nor>an, north of), and the very
            strange ded [flefl in the KS], aptir, havet, the versions of fro, goter etc,
            etc!

            So, lets add some 50 strange words and spellings (a moderate number).

            * Then we have the postmodernist grammar on the KS. The professor that is
            quoted in the egroups gives the example of vi hade (modern swedish!!!) which
            was spelled and had the grammatical form like vi> höf>um and fro deno sten -
            fraa flessum steini. Fro vinland should be something like fraa vinlandi (with
            indirect object ending!!!) etc, etc...

            My guess is that we have about 30 to 40 cases of strange word order and
            grammatical postmodernism on the KS.



            O.k. that is not hundreds of wrong spellings etc. But still...

            In fact I first looked at the KS this fall (after reading about it in the 21.st
            Century) and first I thought that the date 1362 was strange. Then after looking
            at the text I was stunned. Why? because there is nothing that really indicates
            that the text was written in the middle age(!!!!). Normally it is possible to
            judge what date a text was written from looking at thetext. But here - not at
            all!

            This means that some explaination has to be found which accounts for this
            strange, strange text and the runes. Which explains why there is nothing that
            indicates that it is from the middle age. Still I have found no such
            explaination. The theory that colonists, sperated from the european developmen
            wrote it is the best theory I have seen so far. but that does not explain why
            the KS differs from all runic texts from Greenland...



            Best Wishes!

            Torbjörn Jerlerup
            Sweden


            P.S.

            I still wonder about where I can find text and photos of the other possible
            runic stones in America.
          • Geir Odden
            ... It is a munuscript at the Royal Danish library in Copenhagen which says: Konig Magni Befalingsbref Powell Knudsson paa Anarm (Onarheim) gifvet at seigle
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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              Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:

              > On the the expedition by king Magnus. I still have not found the exact source
              > for the information. What book is the note about the expedition from? (that is:
              > what original book from the 14:th or 15.th century)?

              It is a munuscript at the Royal Danish library in Copenhagen which says:

              Konig Magni Befalingsbref Powell Knudsson paa Anarm (Onarheim) gifvet at seigle til Grønland. Magnus med Guds
              Naade Norgis, Suerigis oc Skone Konning sender alle mend som dette Bref see eller høre Guds helse och sind. Vi
              ville at I vide at I haffuer taget alle de Mænd som i Kaaren (Knorren) ville fare af alle, hvad heller de ere
              nævnte
              eller ei nævnte, mine handgangne Mænd eller andre Mænds Svenne oc af andre Mænd, der I faae til os at føre
              dermed som Powell Knudssen, som Høvidsmand skal være paa Kaaren, fuld Befaling at nævne de Mænd i Kaaren
              som hannem tykkes bedst tilfalden være baade til Mestermand oc Svende; bede vi at de anamme denne vor
              Befaling (med) rett god Villie for Sagen, at vi gjøre det i Hæder til Gud oc for vor Sjels oc Forældres Skyld, som
              udi
              Grønland haver Kristendom oc Ophald til denne Dag oc vil end ei lade nederfalde om vore Dage. Vider det i
              sandingen, at hvilken som denne vor Befaling bryder skal faa sande Ublyhed oc derpaa svare os fulde Brevbrot.
              Gjordt i Bergen Mandagen efter Simonis ov Judæ Dag (dvs. 28. okt.) paa sjette oc XXX vore Rigsherrer (eigentleg:
              Riges eller Regjærings Aar). Her Ørmer Østernis wor Drottseter udi Norge inseylede

              This is a transcript from a lost original written by King Magnus in 1354.

              > The question is however still whether the leaders of the economically
              > devastated union between Sweden and Norway could have decided to do something
              > that, as far as we know, had not been done since around 1000,

              Then you forget Bishop Eirik Gnuppson Upsi's visit to Vinland in 1121 mentioned
              in various Icelandic annales.

              > The 14:th century sea farers were no wikings.

              You have to remember the Northern Norwegian fishermens which have
              fished in the whole Northern Atlantic in their longboats virtually unchanged
              since the Viking era up to our time.

              > I still wonder about where I can find text and photos of the other possible
              > runic stones in America.

              The url:
              http://home.sol.no/~krage/pbok1.htm

              gives you the whole story + some pictures of other American runestones.

              Geir Odden
            • michael zalar
              ... [Many arguments cut] These arguments will take some time to answer, bear with me please - I will needs be doing a great deal of cross referencing amongst
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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                >From: Schillerinstitutet/EIR <eap@...>

                >
                >Hi Zalar and all other!
                >

                [Many arguments cut]

                These arguments will take some time to answer, bear with me please - I will
                needs be doing a great deal of cross referencing amongst the various pieces
                of information I have.

                If I am able to make reasonable answer to your arguments, will you concede
                that the KRS is not as impossible an artifact as you believe? I like to
                think that the considerable work here will have some affect.

                Thanks for your patience,

                Michael

                ______________________________________________________
              • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
                Please don´t misunderstand me. By exploration I mean what the wikings did around 1000 when they went to new unknown areas. The Greenlanders must have
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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                  Please don´t misunderstand me. By "exploration" I mean what the wikings did around 1000 when they went to "new" unknown areas.

                  The Greenlanders must have visited America up until the 1400.s to get wood.
                   

                  /Torbjörn
                   

                   

                  > The question is however still whether the leaders of the economically
                  > devastated union between Sweden and Norway could have decided to do something
                  > that, as far as we know, had not been done since around 1000,

                  Then you forget Bishop Eirik Gnuppson Upsi's visit to Vinland in 1121 mentioned
                  in various Icelandic annales.
                   
                   


                   
                   

                  --
                  Schillerinstitutet/EIR
                  Box 11 918
                  161 11 Bromma
                  Sweden

                  Tel: 46-(0)8-98 30 10
                  fax: 46-(0)8-98 30 90

                  E-mail: eap@...
                  http://www.nysol.se
                   

                • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
                  ... Please do it. Not only to convince me, but also to really find out whether the KS is a true stone. I think that I am so open so I can admit that I have
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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                    michael zalar wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > These arguments will take some time to answer, bear with me please - I will
                    > needs be doing a great deal of cross referencing amongst the various pieces
                    > of information I have.
                    >
                    > If I am able to make reasonable answer to your arguments, will you concede
                    > that the KRS is not as impossible an artifact as you believe? I like to
                    > think that the considerable work here will have some affect.
                    >
                    > Thanks for your patience,
                    >
                    > Michael

                    Please do it. Not only to convince me, but also to really find out whether the
                    KS is a true stone. I think that I am so open so I can admit that I have been
                    wrong if I get some of the questions about th KS solved.

                    And besides, no Scandinavian historian will ever believe that the KS is a true
                    stone if the language problem is not adressed. So it could be well worth to
                    spend some time to look at the language.

                    I will look at the other stones when I get time.

                    If you have further questions on grammar, and other specific questions, please
                    feel free to ask about help from me, and I will do my best to help you.

                    best wishes

                    /Torbjörn
                  • Carl Johannessen
                    Dear Machael, Yours is a most welcome set of points. To help the matter go forward as a scientific undertaking, let us, on the list, hunt for the five
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 25, 2000
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                      Dear Machael, Yours is a most welcome set of points. To help the matter
                      go forward as a scientific undertaking, let us, on the list, hunt for the
                      five features of the words or runes that might be thought as the best
                      chance to indicate that the KS was a hoax. Then the various experts on
                      this list can zero in on those points and reinforce those questions or
                      provide evidence why these might not be significant, if read some other
                      way. In the process, if more than five runes are shown to be appropriate
                      for questioning then let us look at those. Regards, Carl.





                      At 08:02 AM 2/25/00 -0800, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>From: Schillerinstitutet/EIR <eap@...>
                      >
                      >>
                      >>Hi Zalar and all other!
                      >>
                      >
                      >[Many arguments cut]
                      >
                      >These arguments will take some time to answer, bear with me please - I will
                      >needs be doing a great deal of cross referencing amongst the various pieces
                      >of information I have.
                      >
                      >If I am able to make reasonable answer to your arguments, will you concede
                      >that the KRS is not as impossible an artifact as you believe? I like to
                      >think that the considerable work here will have some affect.
                      >
                      >Thanks for your patience,
                      >
                      >Michael
                      >
                      >______________________________________________________
                      >
                      >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >Show your style! Choose from 6 great card designs when you
                      >apply for Capital One's 9.9% Fixed APR Visa Platinum.
                      >http://click.egroups.com/1/1894/0/_/3179/_/951494552/
                      >
                      >-- Check out your group's private Chat room
                      >-- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=epigraphy&m=1
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Doug Weller
                      ... this ... colony ... to ... is ... extrordinary. ... command ... or ... able ... This is your reading. There were regular sailings on a more or less yearly
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 27, 2000
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                        On 24/02/00 at 23:48 michael zalar wrote:

                        >>From: Europeiska Arbetarpartiet <eap@...>
                        >
                        >>TO ZALAR:
                        >>
                        >>The journey in 1364 you mention is interesting the only question is if
                        this
                        >>was a regular journey to Greenland or not and if there were a large
                        colony
                        >>somewhere on American ground. If not, I hardly think that they were able
                        to
                        >>gather strength for explorative journeys. As I said before: the question
                        is
                        >>howevera permanent colony existed in America (Hudson bay!!!) or not.
                        >>
                        >
                        >This was by no means an ordinary journey, rather it was quite
                        extrordinary.
                        >By command of King Magnus in October of 1354, Paul Knutson was given
                        command
                        >of the knorr for this expedition, as well as to select "from my bodyguard
                        or
                        >other men's attendants or of other men whom you may induce to go with you"

                        >-and as previously noted this included a navigator from England. I would
                        >imagine that such a mission would be fully supplied from the start, and
                        able
                        >to requisition supplies as well, fully capable of handling a number of
                        >difficult situations.

                        This is your reading. There were regular sailings on a more or less yearly
                        basis, but this one did have a particular commission.
                        What evidence do you have that except for that that this was in some way
                        special, let alone 'quite extraordinary'?

                        Have I missed where it is certain that this expedition included a navigator
                        from England?

                        Doug


                        --
                        Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                        Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                        Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
                        Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
                      • Doug Weller
                        On 23/02/00 at 15:32 John N.Harris wrote: [SNIP] ... Note that one of the archaeologists quoted by Mowat feels very differently: Canadian Geographic Nov-Dec
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 27, 2000
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                          On 23/02/00 at 15:32 John N.Harris wrote:

                          [SNIP]
                          >I would say with respect to the first, Well yes, and why not? And
                          >moreover, where would this likely have been if not on the Ungava
                          >Peninsula below Hudson Strait? What is on this Peninsula, especially on
                          >the west side of Ungava Bay? Here we again return to the neglected
                          >research carried out there by archaeologist Thomas Lee in the 1950s and
                          >1960s on Pamiok Island, at Payne Bay (now Kangirsuk) and inland at Payne
                          >Lake--on the river route that just happens to leads across the Peninsula
                          >to Hudson Bay itself. For related excerpts from Farley Mowat's _The
                          >FarFarers_ (1999), see:
                          >
                          >http://www.cangeo.ca/Farley/story.html
                          >

                          Note that one of the archaeologists quoted by Mowat feels very differently:

                          Canadian Geographic Nov-Dec 1998 has a review of the book by one of the
                          archaeologists whose work is used (or rather mis-used) by Mowat, Peter
                          Schledermann.

                          Schledermann spent over 12 field seasons working in the High Arctic, and
                          says "Mowat's assertion that the "longhouses," or communal structures, and
                          the hearth rows on Knud Peninsula and elsewhere in the Canadian Arctic were
                          constructed and used by Albans as year-round camps, or walrus "factories,"
                          simply cannot be supported by archeological evidence."

                          The article is fairly detailed. He says "Mowat refers to some of our
                          radiocarbon dates to support his theory that the sites on Ellesmere were
                          occupied by the Late Dorset only for a short period. But in fact there are
                          many more dates, including some from communal sites in Greenland and the
                          lower Arctic Islands, which taken together suggest that the Late Dorset
                          occupation of these regions and their use of the stone dwellings and hearth
                          rows took place over a course of 300 to 400 years, perhaps as late as A.D.
                          1200."

                          and

                          "One of the many highlights of our work on Ellesmere Island was the
                          discovery of large numbers of Norse artifacts, such as Viking ship rivets
                          and chain mail, in Thule culture (ancestral Inuit who eclipsed the Dorset
                          culture) winter house ruins. based on the artifacts and where they were
                          found, we believe that Norsemen reached the Smith Sound region at least
                          once sometime around A.D. 1250-1300. Had we found even a hint of European
                          pre-Norse activities in and around the Late Dorset sites on Knud Peninsula,
                          or elsewhere, we would have been ecstatic. What archeologist would not be
                          thrilled to make such a discovery?"

                          Please note his last sentence above. All to many people putting forward
                          fringe ideas seem to think archaeologists would not like to make such
                          discoveries -- very few of them have ever met a real archaeologist I'd
                          think.

                          Doug




                          --
                          Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                          Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                          Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
                          Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
                        • michael zalar
                          ... Actually, I have read very little about the correct forms on the Kensington stone. I have seen some few notes on this, but in your opinion what is correct
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 27, 2000
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                            >
                            >If you have further questions on grammar, and other specific questions,
                            >please
                            >feel free to ask about help from me, and I will do my best to help you.
                            >
                            >best wishes
                            >
                            >/Torbj�rn


                            Actually, I have read very little about the correct forms on the Kensington
                            stone. I have seen some few notes on this, but in your opinion what is
                            correct about the stone - what parts could be legitimate Old Swedish (or
                            rather Old Bohuslansk, as that seems the likely area of origin). Please
                            allow some variation for misspelling, and note also what would be Old Swe
                            and not Mod Swe if any.
                            Thank you,
                            Michael
                            ______________________________________________________
                          • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
                            ... 1) How regular was the journeys to Greenland (and possibly beoyond Greenland) after the great plague and the economic collaps and economic warfare before
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 28, 2000
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                              Doug Weller wrote:

                              >
                              > >
                              > >This was by no means an ordinary journey, rather it was quite
                              > extrordinary.
                              > >By command of King Magnus in October of 1354, Paul Knutson was given
                              > command
                              > >of the knorr for this expedition, as well as to select "from my bodyguard
                              > or
                              > >other men's attendants or of other men whom you may induce to go with you"
                              >
                              > Well there are some questions.

                              1) How regular was the journeys to Greenland (and possibly beoyond Greenland)
                              after the great plague and the economic collaps and economic warfare before
                              the plague?

                              2) Was there a colony on american ground or did the people on Greenland only
                              go there to get wood and food.

                              3) Did ever a ship from europe visit America. ( The quote about the mission in
                              1350.s seems to mention only greenland, not Vinland: "Konig Magni
                              Befalingsbref Powell Knudsson paa Anarm (Onarheim) gifvet at seigle til
                              Grønland. Magnus med Guds
                              Naade Norgis, Suerigis oc Skone Konning sender alle mend som dette Bref
                              see eller høre Guds helse och sind. Vi
                              ville at I vide at I haffuer taget alle de Mænd som i Kaaren (Knorren)
                              ville fare af alle, hvad heller de ere
                              nævnte eller ei nævnte, mine handgangne Mænd eller andre Mænds Svenne oc
                              af andre Mænd, der I faae til os at føre
                              dermed som Powell Knudssen, som Høvidsmand skal være paa Kaaren, fuld
                              Befaling at nævne de Mænd i Kaaren
                              som hannem tykkes bedst tilfalden være baade til Mestermand oc Svende;
                              bede vi at de anamme denne vor
                              Befaling (med) rett god Villie for Sagen, at vi gjøre det i Hæder til
                              Gud oc for vor Sjels oc Forældres Skyld, som
                              udi Grønland haver Kristendom oc Ophald til denne Dag oc vil end ei lade
                              nederfalde om vore Dage. Vider det i
                              sandingen, at hvilken som denne vor Befaling bryder skal faa sande
                              Ublyhed oc derpaa svare os fulde Brevbrot.
                              Gjordt i Bergen Mandagen efter Simonis ov Judæ Dag (dvs. 28. okt.) paa
                              sjette oc XXX vore Rigsherrer (eigentleg:
                              Riges eller Regjærings Aar). Her Ørmer Østernis wor Drottseter udi Norge
                              inseylede

                              /Torbjörn
                            • Schillerinstitutet/EIR
                              ... One comment. The KS text has no similarities at all to runic stones in Bohuslän. /Torbjörn
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 28, 2000
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                                michael zalar wrote:

                                >
                                > Actually, I have read very little about the correct forms on the Kensington
                                > stone. I have seen some few notes on this, but in your opinion what is
                                > correct about the stone - what parts could be legitimate Old Swedish (or
                                > rather Old Bohuslansk, as that seems the likely area of origin). Please
                                > allow some variation for misspelling, and note also what would be Old Swe
                                > and not Mod Swe if any.
                                > Thank you,
                                > Michael

                                One comment. The KS text has no similarities at all to runic stones in
                                Bohuslän.

                                /Torbjörn
                              • Geir Odden
                                ... It seems to have collapsed. An knarr reached Bergen from Greenland with a rich cargo in 1346. The next and possible last official knarr could have been the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 28, 2000
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                                  Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:

                                  > 1) How regular was the journeys to Greenland (and possibly beoyond Greenland)
                                  > after the great plague and the economic collaps and economic warfare before
                                  > the plague?

                                  It seems to have collapsed. An knarr reached Bergen from Greenland
                                  with a rich cargo in 1346. The next and possible last official knarr could have
                                  been the Paul Knutsson expedition. Somehow the officialis of Gardar, Ivar
                                  Bardsson, managed to return to Norway later.

                                  > 2) Was there a colony on american ground or did the people on Greenland only
                                  > go there to get wood and food.

                                  Well, we have Norumbega which means the Settlement where the rivers
                                  gets narrow in both Norse and Algonquin and Sunnibegwi (Southern Settlement)
                                  in Maine. Both places had timber cabin houses when the first European
                                  discoverers showed up. The peoples of Sunnibegwi was called the Norweegewock.
                                  Some indians in Maine was known for having beards.
                                  The only confirmed Norse settlement in mainland America is LAM in
                                  Newfoundland. It was used for maybe 20 years around Y1K.

                                  > 3) Did ever a ship from europe visit America. ( The quote about the mission in
                                  > 1350.s seems to mention only greenland, not Vinland:

                                  Since American clams from the 1200's was found at the Northern
                                  tip of Denmark the answer is probably yes.
                                  This could have been a real off shore route from Newfoundland to Ireland,
                                  through the English channel, to the tip of Denmark and home to Norway.
                                  John Cabot used 15 days on the trip from Newfoundland to Bristol, England
                                  in 1497.

                                  Scientific Correspondence from NATURE, VOL 359, 22 October 1992,
                                  page 679.
                                  "Clams before Columbus?"
                                  Sir--Zoologists and geologists agree that specimens of Mya arenari
                                  (the
                                  American soft-shell clam) from the Holoscene found in Europe first appeared
                                  in
                                  the sixteenth century, after the voyage of Columbus [foot note:Hessland, I
                                  Arkiv for Zool 37A, No 8. 1-51 (1945)]. But we have dated a sample from the
                                  Kattegat region on the east coast of the Skaw in the northern Jutland,
                                  Denmark, that pre-dates Columbus's voyage. This result implies that contact
                                  between America and Europe existed before the sixteenth century.
                                  M. arenaria is known to have been transferred from Armerica to
                                  Europe by man
                                  [ref. foot note above] because of zoological evidence that the larvae could
                                  not have spread spontaneously to Europe from America. The species has
                                  stayed
                                  in America since the Pliocene, whereas it died out in Europe at the
                                  beginning
                                  og the Pleistocene [footnote 2 Strauch, F. Abh. senckenberg. naturforsch.
                                  Ges
                                  531, 1-210. (1972)].
                                  During our study of the Holocene coastal and faunal development of
                                  the Skagen
                                  Odde in northern Jutland, it became clear that the east coast offered the
                                  possibility of a close examination of the youngest fauna and coastal
                                  development [footnote 3 Petersen, K.S. Quatern. Int. 9 53-60 (1991)]. For
                                  more
                                  than 1,000 years, the coast has migrated eastwards because of the
                                  accumulation
                                  of successive barrier sand systems.
                                  The molluscan fauna of today is dominated by Cardium, Spisul,
                                  Macoma and M.
                                  arenaria. We took three samples from the east coast of the Skaw, all
                                  dominated
                                  by Cardium edule (common edible cockle), but with fragments of M. arenaria.
                                  The assemblage of molluscs from the site has been dated by conventional
                                  radiocarbon dating on the basis of C. edule using 50 g. from each of the
                                  three
                                  samples. The C. edule shells were etched in hydrochloric acid to remove the
                                  surface layers. At least 10% of the mass of the shells was removed for
                                  analysis at the 14C dating laboratory in Copenhagen. The conventional
                                  radiocarbon datings of the three samples (K-5848 to K-5850) showed
                                  calibrated
                                  ages in the range AD 1400-1650. We subsequently radiocarbon dated one M.
                                  arenaria specimen from each of the three samples by accelerator mass
                                  spectrometry (AMS) using about 20 mg of each sample. The shells were given
                                  standard chemical treatment including acid etching to remove the surface
                                  layers (at least 20% of the total mass) for analysis at the AMS dating
                                  laboratory at the University of Aarhus. The age of the M. arenaria sample
                                  (II)
                                  found in the sand barrier furthest from the coast (AAR-883, AD 1245-1295 at
                                  +/- 1 s.d.) without doubt predates Columbus's voyage in 1492. The figures
                                  shows the age probability distribution of the two radiocarbon datings of
                                  the
                                  oldest sample. It is obvious from the distribution that there is a very
                                  slight
                                  probability of the sample being younger than Columbus's discovery of
                                  America
                                  in AD 1492.
                                  These finds of M. arenaria raise the question of an earlier
                                  transfer from
                                  America to Europe than previously assumed [see footnote 2]. In AD 1542, the
                                  French first colonized the east coast of America, but since the discovery
                                  of
                                  North America by Leif Ericson in around AD 1000, repeated trade by Nordic
                                  people settling in Greenland has been recorded. Consequently, M. arenari
                                  could
                                  have been transferred from North America to Europe by the Vikings, but it
                                  still remains to be seen when M. arenaria invaded Europe.
                                  Authors of this correspondence:
                                  K.S. Petersen, Geological Survey of Denmark, DK-2400 Copenhagen NV,
                                  Denmark.
                                  K.L.Rasmussen 14C Dating Laboratory, National Museum and Geological
                                  Survey of
                                  Denmark, NY Vestergade II, DK-1471 Copenhagen, Denmark.
                                  J. Heinemeier, N. Rud, AMS Dating Laboratory, Institute of Physics,
                                  University of Aarhus, DK-8000 Aarhus C, Denmark.
                                  Included are two graphs of probability distribution, one of which
                                  shows
                                  conventional date on C. edule (500 +/- 50 years BP) and the AMS date on M.
                                  arenaria (720 +/- 80 years BP).

                                  Geir Odden
                                • Geir Odden
                                  ... Greenland) ... before ... The Royal Greenland Knarr got lost at sea in 1369. Looks like this was the last attempt to send an official knarr from Norway to
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 28, 2000
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                                    Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:

                                    > 1) How regular was the journeys to Greenland (and possibly beoyond
                                    Greenland)
                                    > after the great plague and the economic collaps and economic warfare
                                    before
                                    > the plague?

                                    The Royal Greenland Knarr got lost at sea in 1369. Looks like this was
                                    the last attempt to send an official knarr from Norway to Greenland.
                                    Re: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/history/grontime.html

                                    Geir Odden
                                  • Doug Weller
                                    ... Greenland) ... before ... have ... Have you read Tryggvi Oleson s book Early Voyages and Northern Approaches. An interesting book. He argues for Icelanders
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 28, 2000
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                                      On 28/02/00 at 16:21 Geir Odden wrote:

                                      >Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> 1) How regular was the journeys to Greenland (and possibly beoyond
                                      Greenland)
                                      >> after the great plague and the economic collaps and economic warfare
                                      before
                                      >> the plague?
                                      >
                                      >It seems to have collapsed. An knarr reached Bergen from Greenland
                                      >with a rich cargo in 1346. The next and possible last official knarr could
                                      have
                                      >been the Paul Knutsson expedition. Somehow the officialis of Gardar, Ivar
                                      >Bardsson, managed to return to Norway later.

                                      Have you read Tryggvi Oleson's book Early Voyages and Northern Approaches.
                                      An interesting book. He argues for Icelanders voyaging annually to Baffin
                                      Island, Labrador, and maybe Newfoundland (as well as Greenland). And that 2
                                      Portuguese noblemen went along in 1471.

                                      Anyway, he believes a ship must have returned from Greenland in 1354 with
                                      information that led to the Knutsson
                                      expedition. And that annual sailings continued after that, with Bardsson
                                      returning in 1363 or early 1364, Bishop Gardar
                                      going there in 1364, a knorr going there in 1366 and evidently being
                                      wrecked in returning the next year.
                                      He thinks by the 1380s the visits were no longer yearly from Norway, but
                                      that contacts between Iceland and Greenland
                                      continued regularly.


                                      [SNIP]
                                      >Some indians in Maine was known for having beards.

                                      Indians anywhere can have beards. Although not as hairy as Europeans, it's
                                      a myth that they can't have
                                      facial hair.


                                      [SNIP]

                                      Doug
                                      --
                                      Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                                      Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                                      Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
                                      Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
                                    • Ed & Linda
                                      ... As a matter of fact, some Eastern tribes such as the Lennilenape and Mohicans of the Delawares were known to shave (scrape off whiskers any way) using
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 29, 2000
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                                        Doug Weller wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:
                                        >
                                        > [SNIP]
                                        > >Some indians in Maine was known for having beards.
                                        >
                                        > Indians anywhere can have beards. Although not as hairy as Europeans, it's
                                        > a myth that they can't have
                                        > facial hair.
                                        >
                                        > [SNIP]
                                        >
                                        > Doug

                                        As a matter of fact, some Eastern tribes such as the Lennilenape and Mohicans of the Delawares were known to
                                        shave (scrape off whiskers any way) using sharpened clam shells.

                                        Doc Rock
                                        Tokyo
                                      • John N.Harris
                                        Regarding Doug Weller s criticism of references to Farley Mowat s _The FarFarers_ in my post dated Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:32:06 (his Msg:
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 29, 2000
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                                          Regarding Doug Weller's criticism of references to Farley Mowat's _The
                                          FarFarers_ in my post dated Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:32:06 (his Msg:
                                          http://www.egroups.com/group/epigraphy/2805.html )
                                          and his inclusion of Peter Schlederman's research in the Canadian High
                                          Arctic. I can only assume that I did not make it abundantly clear that
                                          my references to _The Farfarers_ were intended to provide the source for
                                          archaeologist Thomas Lee's researches on the Ungava Peninsula--as indeed
                                          was the supplied link.
                                          This having been said, I personally find most of Farley Mowat's books
                                          eminently readable. Moreover, they also provide an excellent source of
                                          information concerning Northern topics, e.g., "Samuel Hearne's
                                          Expedition to the Coppermine River, 1769-72," and "John Franklin's March
                                          to the Sea, 1819-22" (Farley Mowat, _TUNDRA, Selections from the Great
                                          Accounts of Arctic Land Voyages_, McClelland & Stewart, Toronto, 1989),
                                          and of course, Thomas Lee's neglected Arctic research now made generally
                                          available by Mowat in _The FarFarers_ (Seal Books, Toronto, 1999).
                                          As for _The Farfarers_, as I see it Farley Mowat presents two distinct
                                          and different trains running on parallel tracks. I assume that this was
                                          intentional, i.e., readers may make their own choice, statements of
                                          intent concerning the book itself notwithstanding.
                                          The first choice is ostensively the main theme, i.e., the suggested
                                          presence of earlier European "Albans" in the Eastern Arctic, etc. The
                                          second choice, however, concerns in no small way Thomas Lee's
                                          archaeological material on the Ungava Peninsula. If one rejects the
                                          "Albans," as most archaeologists no doubt will, then what are the
                                          logical alternatives? That the many large stone structures (Cairns and
                                          unroofed stone longhouses) were all simply the work of the Inuit?
                                          Perhaps, but this is hardly the only possibility. And here I must say
                                          that for my own part I welcome the rejection of the "Albans" by
                                          competent archaeologists such as Peter Schlederman, whose work I admire
                                          greatly, along with that of Thomas Lee (which incidentally makes the
                                          last few lines in Weller's critique all the more puzzling).
                                          But to return to the issue at hand. If not the Inuit alone, then who?
                                          Here I prefer Occam's Razor-- neither European "Albans" nor
                                          "Thule/Alaskans" at all--that there likely never was such a thing as a
                                          "Thule Culture" per se, i.e., a full-blown influx of Alaskan Inuit into
                                          the Eastern Arctic around the turn of the First Millennium. I suggest
                                          that it is far more reasonable and more logical to explain the so-called
                                          "Thule Sites" there and across the Arctic in terms of the natural
                                          progression of Thule-Vikings moving up the Greenland coast then
                                          westwards into the Arctic Archipelago, Hudson Bay and further West. And
                                          the Dorset? Unless they were decimated by disease (an unfortunate
                                          possibility), they neither faded away nor disappeared without a trace,
                                          they likely changed by adopting improved methodology obtained from the
                                          Vikings as they passed through and perhaps from time to time also
                                          stayed.
                                          And time there was in abundance--more than three hundred years in fact.
                                          Thus the question remains. Where else might the Greenland Vikings have
                                          gone in all the time that was available to them?

                                          Lux et tenebris
                                          John N.Harris.
                                          http://www3.telus.net/JNHDA/index.htm
                                          E-Mail: john_harris@...
                                          Tel: 604-921-7082
                                        • Doug Weller
                                          ... it s ... Mohicans of the Delawares were known to ... Thanks Doc. This myth is used by people like Sitchin to prove a variety of people must have visited
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 29, 2000
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                                            On 29/02/00 at 17:12 Ed & Linda wrote:

                                            >Doug Weller wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> >Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> [SNIP]
                                            >> >Some indians in Maine was known for having beards.
                                            >>
                                            >> Indians anywhere can have beards. Although not as hairy as Europeans,
                                            it's
                                            >> a myth that they can't have
                                            >> facial hair.
                                            >>
                                            >> [SNIP]
                                            >>
                                            >> Doug
                                            >
                                            >As a matter of fact, some Eastern tribes such as the Lennilenape and
                                            Mohicans of the Delawares were known to
                                            >shave (scrape off whiskers any way) using sharpened clam shells.
                                            >

                                            Thanks Doc. This myth is used by people like Sitchin to 'prove' a variety
                                            of people must have visited the Americas. In fact I've seen it on a web
                                            site today!

                                            Doug
                                            --
                                            Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                                            Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                                            Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
                                            Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
                                          • Frederick N. Brown
                                            Her in Arizona where Indians are encountered every day both on and off reservations the presence of any hair at all on males is rare and when it does occure is
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Mar 1, 2000
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                                              Her in Arizona where Indians are encountered every day both
                                              on and off reservations the presence of any hair at all on
                                              males is rare and when it does occure is only sparse. I
                                              have also checked this by direct questioning of Amerind
                                              friends who were raised on reservations. They tell me that
                                              usually the few hairs are plucked out.

                                              "Spanish"Mexican peopler hereabouts show strong traces of
                                              their Indian forebears. In this case heavy beards are often
                                              encountered, but just as often the sparse hair of Amerinds.

                                              The key problem is in heavy or full beards. There are
                                              strong indications that this occurred in the Wampanoags of
                                              the Cape Cod region. In 1602 Gosnal remarked that the
                                              practice of using false beards as indications of virility
                                              was practiced by the natives of Marthas Vinyard (also
                                              Wampanoag).
                                              There are hints that I have been unable to track down that
                                              Massasoit, savior of the Plymouth Pilgrims was full bearded.
                                              He also was Wampanaog but resided at some distance from
                                              Plymouth as the natives of that area had been decimated by
                                              disease. So far distant, in fact, that his home was upon
                                              the shores of Narragansett Bay.




                                              Frederick N.Brown
                                              Voyage of Wave Cleaver, Inc.
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Doug Weller <dweller@...>
                                              To: <epigraphy@egroups.com>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 3:43 PM
                                              Subject: [epigraphy] Re: The Kensington stone IS fake


                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On 29/02/00 at 17:12 Ed & Linda wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >Doug Weller wrote:
                                              > >>
                                              > >> >Schillerinstitutet/EIR wrote:
                                              > >>
                                              > >> [SNIP]
                                              > >> >Some indians in Maine was known for having beards.
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Indians anywhere can have beards. Although not as
                                              hairy as Europeans,
                                              > it's
                                              > >> a myth that they can't have
                                              > >> facial hair.
                                              > >>
                                              > >> [SNIP]
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Doug
                                              > >
                                              > >As a matter of fact, some Eastern tribes such as the
                                              Lennilenape and
                                              > Mohicans of the Delawares were known to
                                              > >shave (scrape off whiskers any way) using sharpened clam
                                              shells.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks Doc. This myth is used by people like Sitchin to
                                              'prove' a variety
                                              > of people must have visited the Americas. In fact I've
                                              seen it on a web
                                              > site today!
                                              >
                                              > Doug
                                              > --
                                              > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                                              > Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                                              > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
                                              > Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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