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Re: [energyresources] Re: Arthur's few lines

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  • Lawrence B. Crowell
    ... for not all people being gobbles up in the DieOff process. ... One of the troubling thought trains with this list is a certain elitist assumption. I will
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      At 11:38 AM 11/30/03 -0700, you wrote:
      >
      >~~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~
      >
      >Folks, it is paying heed to concerns noted above that lay the groundwork
      for not all people being gobbles up in the DieOff process.
      >
      >~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Tom Robertson ~~~~~~
      >

      One of the troubling thought trains with this list is a certain elitist
      assumption. I will say that it is obvious that some people are more
      intelligent than others, or that there are those with more of the various
      physical or mental pathologies over others. On the whole one is probably a
      bit more smart today if you know about these E&R issues than those ignorant
      of it. However, none of this gives us a certain right to make
      pronouncements on who should be condemned to the wolves of a die off. The
      die off is a seriously likelyhood for the human race, but none of us are in
      any position to make any policy around this issue. Further if such policy
      makers come to the head I am certain that they will make Himmler, Heydrich,
      and Eichmann appear to be saints. I personally would prefer to avoid such
      company. A measure of some thinking here has a certain aspects along these
      lines.

      For myself, I prefer not to get into these ideas about things. There is
      nothing that I can do about them, at least at this time. I have no power
      to change aspects of some of the more dangerous aspects of our current age.
      So why should I waste a lot of time imagining that I am some savior or
      Napoleanic figure who can do anything about these things?

      I will say this. The root of humanity's problems lies with our tendency to
      play games that have ever greater stakes behind them. We have various
      power games, war games, money games, influence games, fear games, hate
      games, God games, and "who has who's neck in a chokehold" games, and so
      forth. So long as we continue to play these types of games, well our
      species' prospects will always be about the role of the dice. It simply
      can't be any other way. Will humanity ever likely change from this? I
      doubt it, so why worry?

      Lawrence B. Crowell


      For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the movement either
      of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the necessarily
      unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible relatively to
      things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to the thing
      seen and the spectator.

      "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus
    • Tom Robertson
      ~~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~ In the following, Lawrence B. Crowell says:
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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        ~~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~

        In the following, Lawrence B. Crowell says:

        <So long as we continue to play these types of games, well our
        species' prospects will always be about the role of the dice. It simply
        can't be any other way. Will humanity ever likely change from this? I
        doubt it, so why worry?>

        In response, I have to say that as long as we can know of and speak about
        our lives as being part of a game, then we owe it to ourselves to seek
        advantages in the way we play the game--and as far as possible manage all we
        can for the betterment of our own and associated interests.

        Thus, humanity may or may not change, but we increase the possibility that
        not only will some of us will change, but that change will be for the
        better.

        ~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Tom Robertson ~~~~~~

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lawrence B. Crowell [mailto:lcrowell@...]
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 10:38 PM
        To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [energyresources] Re: Arthur's few lines


        At 11:38 AM 11/30/03 -0700, you wrote:
        >
        >~~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~
        >
        >Folks, it is paying heed to concerns noted above that lay the groundwork
        for not all people being gobbles up in the DieOff process.
        >
        >~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Tom Robertson ~~~~~~
        >

        One of the troubling thought trains with this list is a certain elitist
        assumption. I will say that it is obvious that some people are more
        intelligent than others, or that there are those with more of the various
        physical or mental pathologies over others. On the whole one is probably a
        bit more smart today if you know about these E&R issues than those ignorant
        of it. However, none of this gives us a certain right to make
        pronouncements on who should be condemned to the wolves of a die off. The
        die off is a seriously likelyhood for the human race, but none of us are in
        any position to make any policy around this issue. Further if such policy
        makers come to the head I am certain that they will make Himmler, Heydrich,
        and Eichmann appear to be saints. I personally would prefer to avoid such
        company. A measure of some thinking here has a certain aspects along these
        lines.

        For myself, I prefer not to get into these ideas about things. There is
        nothing that I can do about them, at least at this time. I have no power
        to change aspects of some of the more dangerous aspects of our current age.
        So why should I waste a lot of time imagining that I am some savior or
        Napoleanic figure who can do anything about these things?

        I will say this. The root of humanity's problems lies with our tendency to
        play games that have ever greater stakes behind them. We have various
        power games, war games, money games, influence games, fear games, hate
        games, God games, and "who has who's neck in a chokehold" games, and so
        forth. So long as we continue to play these types of games, well our
        species' prospects will always be about the role of the dice. It simply
        can't be any other way. Will humanity ever likely change from this? I
        doubt it, so why worry?

        Lawrence B. Crowell


        For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the movement either
        of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the necessarily
        unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible relatively to
        things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to the thing
        seen and the spectator.

        "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus





        Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
        Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • arthurcnoll
        ... I m not troubled about the possibility of sending people to the wolves, as you put it. What I try to do, is tell people my understanding of reality. If
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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          ---
          I'm not troubled about the possibility of sending people to the
          wolves, as you put it. What I try to do, is tell people my
          understanding of reality. If they chose to ignore it, and I am
          right, then they are sending themselves to the wolves. If I don't go
          beyond verbal argument, and don't try and force people to behave
          differently physically, I don't usually get people trying to force me
          physically in return. The degree to which I push people, I get back.

          However, this is not powerless. Telling people a view of reality
          that raises doubts in their minds about their own view of reality,
          can be a powerful thing to do. If they squirm about it long enough,
          and if events in the world give them no resolution about it, because
          of a lack of objectivity on their part, (making decisions on the
          number of people who agree with them, for example, without regard for
          actual facts) I think it is very possible that people who do have
          power are likely to make big moves to try and prove their view to be
          right. If the reality is not there to support them, such leaders and
          their followers can fall swiftly and far. And all that was required
          was for someone to raise doubts in their minds. It doesn't take much
          force to trip someone, even if they are very large. This is the
          principle involved here. And the bigger they come, the harder they
          fall.

          And again, how can one say not to do this? Is it better to be
          silent and let people "go to the wolves", without any warning? Some
          people might hear, and change their lives. If those people who hear
          constitute an elite, then I think it is an elite that was arrived at
          honestly, unlike the elite today, who have often gotten their
          positions of power without actual talents for being in such
          positions, but because they could buy those positions, or because
          they were the best liar, or various combinations. That is not always
          true, but too often it is. How do you tell one person from another?
          I don't think there is any better way than to put out your view of
          reality and see if it can be challenged. If no one makes a serious
          challenge of it, but only a few follow it, and the rest throw
          themselves to the wolves, tripping over reality, so it goes.

          Arthur
          Sacramento


          In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence B. Crowell"
          <lcrowell@s...> wrote:
          > At 11:38 AM 11/30/03 -0700, you wrote:
          > >
          > >~~~~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Comment ~~~~~~~~~
          > >
          > >Folks, it is paying heed to concerns noted above that lay the
          groundwork
          > for not all people being gobbles up in the DieOff process.
          > >
          > >~~~~~ EnergyResources Moderator Tom Robertson ~~~~~~
          > >
          >
          > One of the troubling thought trains with this list is a certain
          elitist
          > assumption. I will say that it is obvious that some people are more
          > intelligent than others, or that there are those with more of the
          various
          > physical or mental pathologies over others. On the whole one is
          probably a
          > bit more smart today if you know about these E&R issues than those
          ignorant
          > of it. However, none of this gives us a certain right to make
          > pronouncements on who should be condemned to the wolves of a die
          off. The
          > die off is a seriously likelyhood for the human race, but none of
          us are in
          > any position to make any policy around this issue. Further if such
          policy
          > makers come to the head I am certain that they will make Himmler,
          Heydrich,
          > and Eichmann appear to be saints. I personally would prefer to
          avoid such
          > company. A measure of some thinking here has a certain aspects
          along these
          > lines.
          >
          > For myself, I prefer not to get into these ideas about things.
          There is
          > nothing that I can do about them, at least at this time. I have no
          power
          > to change aspects of some of the more dangerous aspects of our
          current age.
          > So why should I waste a lot of time imagining that I am some
          savior or
          > Napoleanic figure who can do anything about these things?
          >
          > I will say this. The root of humanity's problems lies with our
          tendency to
          > play games that have ever greater stakes behind them. We have
          various
          > power games, war games, money games, influence games, fear games,
          hate
          > games, God games, and "who has who's neck in a chokehold" games,
          and so
          > forth. So long as we continue to play these types of games, well
          our
          > species' prospects will always be about the role of the dice. It
          simply
          > can't be any other way. Will humanity ever likely change from
          this? I
          > doubt it, so why worry?
          >
          > Lawrence B. Crowell
          >
          >
          > For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the
          movement either
          > of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the
          necessarily
          > unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible
          relatively to
          > things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to
          the thing
          > seen and the spectator.
          >
          > "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus
        • Lawrence B. Crowell
          ... I am only going at this time to concentrate on these opening words. This is because this sentence hits the core of the problem. In recent times our world
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            At 06:52 PM 12/1/03 -0000, you wrote:
            >---
            > I'm not troubled about the possibility of sending people to the
            >wolves, as you put it.

            I am only going at this time to concentrate on these opening words. This
            is because this sentence hits the core of the problem.

            In recent times our world has become increasingly fractured by emergent and
            growing hate agendas. This has been particularly the case since Osama bin
            Ladin did his first shot in what could be a global upheaval. There have
            been growing hate thought trends that has infected our society. Consider
            the talk radio, shock jock shows, Rush Limbaugh, and G. Liddy calling for
            "head shots," that has grown up over the past 12 years. These shrill
            voices appeal to the most visceral and ugly aspects of the human character,
            and the media has learned that hate sells.

            Oh and by the way Limbaugh is a racist! They guy is completely consumed by
            it, and couldn't keep his fat mouth shut about it during a football game
            commentary! The last place one should dis black people, even if your are a
            stinking racist, is on a sports program!

            The problem with the line, "I'm not troubled about the possibility of
            sending people to the wolves," is that this is not that far from somebody
            saying in 1942 Germany, "I could care less if Jews are being sent in
            boxcars to death camps." There is a parallel thinking here, and it is a
            dark form of thinking. If we are not able to get tabs on our minds and
            what we are saying, thinking and doing, then these hate agendas could
            consume us all. And if I had a calibrated hate-meter, I would probably
            find that the social hate levels in our society and the world at large are
            on the increase these days. This is a pernicious virus, or brain meme if
            you will, that is infecting our world at an alarming rate. Hate can kill,
            and when it infects a mass number of people, it kills in mass numbers.

            Consider that the recent emergent hate agendas involve monotheisitic
            religions to a large degree. Both Christianity and Islam have quite
            telling stories about how God, Jesus or Allah is going to come to reassert
            HIS authority with violent and dire consequences for unbelievers. There is
            a quirky messianic trend amongst Israelis these days, in particular with
            the west bank settlers. The problem is that Bush and his Cabal of felons
            are convinced they are a part of God's plan for the end time final battle.
            Similar apocolyptic statements and fatwahs by Islamic clerics pollute the
            social mindscape as well. Well given that our world bristles with nuclear
            weapons, a continued expansion of these hate agendas in our world could be
            interesting!

            The dichotomy between love and hate is interesting. It appears to me that
            love is something that is most strong between people who know each other.
            I see little evidence for what might be called universal love or love that
            encompasses the mass of humanity. The numbers of people who might exhibit
            this, such as Mohadas Ghandi, are very few. Hatred on the other hand is
            almost scale invariant. Hate can range from the personal to the
            transnational. I will also say this of the emotional hand maiden of
            hatred, which is fear. In fact we are in an age of fear, and today the
            media broadcasts are basically fear mongering rants. History is filled
            with cases where hatred has propagated across mass populations, such as the
            rise of Nazism in the early 1930s, but scant evidence for any similar
            movement that involves love.

            When it comes to issues that are relevant to the ER forum, I think that the
            only way these problems have any chance of being successfully addressed is
            through reasoning. The prospect of a die-off, or die-out, is there, but it
            should not become a causal reasoning for triage politics or similar ideas
            that can realistically only lead to warfare and holocaust that will consume
            us all.

            Finally, there is a personal aspect to this. I have far more interesting
            things to devote my mind to over dark ideas about how WE should execute
            various ghastly plans against THEM. For the sake of my personal happiness
            I would just assume not indulge in these patterns of thought. To be honest
            I think that if people at large agreed to do the same that many of the
            problems of our world would abate. Yet on the personal level I would just
            assume not waste my mind on this sort of ugly rot. At this point my
            thoughts on these matters are mostly personal, but maybe other people will
            make a similar personal committment to do some mental cleanup of their
            mindscapes as well.

            Lawrence B. Crowell

            So close no matter how far
            couldn't be much more from the heart
            forever trusting who we are
            and nothing else matters

            never opened myself this way
            life is ours, we live it our way
            all these words I don't just say
            and nothing else matters

            trust I seek and I find in you
            every day for us something new
            open mind for a different view
            and nothing else matters

            never cared for what they do
            never cared for what they know
            but I know

            so close no matter how far
            couldn't be much more from the heart
            forever trusting who we are
            and nothing else matters

            never cared for what they do
            never cared for what they know
            but I know

            never opened myself this way
            life is ours, we live it our way
            all these words I don't just say

            trust I seek and I find in you
            every day for us something new
            open mind for a different view
            and nothing else matters

            never cared for what they say
            never cared for games they play
            never cared for what they do
            never cared for what they know
            and I know

            so close no matter how far
            couldn't be much more from the heart
            forever trusting who we are
            no nothing else matters

            "Nothing Else Matters" by Metallica



            For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the movement either
            of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the necessarily
            unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible relatively to
            things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to the thing
            seen and the spectator.

            "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus
          • bradfordfour
            This is exactly why I don t just opt out of politics. During really bad times we want a leader we trust to look after the common interests. If there are
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2003
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              This is exactly why I don't just opt out of politics. During really
              bad times we want a leader we trust to look after the common
              interests. If there are hoarders and cheaters out there and the
              government does nothing about it all hell breaks loose. If the
              government plays a blame them game, all hell breaks loose. This is
              not a left wing/right wing thing...this is about trust, honesty,
              integrity and courage. We need that very badly right now. Leaders
              can move masses and that can be great or terrifying.

              Jason, CA

              --- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence B. Crowell"
              <lcrowell@s...> wrote:
              > At 06:52 PM 12/1/03 -0000, you wrote:
              > >---
              > > I'm not troubled about the possibility of sending people to the
              > >wolves, as you put it.
              >
              > I am only going at this time to concentrate on these opening
              words. This
              > is because this sentence hits the core of the problem.
              >
              > In recent times our world has become increasingly fractured by
              emergent and
              > growing hate agendas. This has been particularly the case since
              Osama bin
              > Ladin did his first shot in what could be a global upheaval.
              There have
              > been growing hate thought trends that has infected our society.
              Consider
              > the talk radio, shock jock shows, Rush Limbaugh, and G. Liddy
              calling for
              > "head shots," that has grown up over the past 12 years. These
              shrill
              > voices appeal to the most visceral and ugly aspects of the human
              character,
              > and the media has learned that hate sells.
              >
              > Oh and by the way Limbaugh is a racist! They guy is completely
              consumed by
              > it, and couldn't keep his fat mouth shut about it during a
              football game
              > commentary! The last place one should dis black people, even if
              your are a
              > stinking racist, is on a sports program!
              >
              > The problem with the line, "I'm not troubled about the possibility
              of
              > sending people to the wolves," is that this is not that far from
              somebody
              > saying in 1942 Germany, "I could care less if Jews are being sent
              in
              > boxcars to death camps." There is a parallel thinking here, and
              it is a
              > dark form of thinking. If we are not able to get tabs on our
              minds and
              > what we are saying, thinking and doing, then these hate agendas
              could
              > consume us all. And if I had a calibrated hate-meter, I would
              probably
              > find that the social hate levels in our society and the world at
              large are
              > on the increase these days. This is a pernicious virus, or brain
              meme if
              > you will, that is infecting our world at an alarming rate. Hate
              can kill,
              > and when it infects a mass number of people, it kills in mass
              numbers.
              >
              > Consider that the recent emergent hate agendas involve
              monotheisitic
              > religions to a large degree. Both Christianity and Islam have
              quite
              > telling stories about how God, Jesus or Allah is going to come to
              reassert
              > HIS authority with violent and dire consequences for unbelievers.
              There is
              > a quirky messianic trend amongst Israelis these days, in
              particular with
              > the west bank settlers. The problem is that Bush and his Cabal of
              felons
              > are convinced they are a part of God's plan for the end time final
              battle.
              > Similar apocolyptic statements and fatwahs by Islamic clerics
              pollute the
              > social mindscape as well. Well given that our world bristles with
              nuclear
              > weapons, a continued expansion of these hate agendas in our world
              could be
              > interesting!
              >
              > The dichotomy between love and hate is interesting. It appears to
              me that
              > love is something that is most strong between people who know each
              other.
              > I see little evidence for what might be called universal love or
              love that
              > encompasses the mass of humanity. The numbers of people who might
              exhibit
              > this, such as Mohadas Ghandi, are very few. Hatred on the other
              hand is
              > almost scale invariant. Hate can range from the personal to the
              > transnational. I will also say this of the emotional hand maiden
              of
              > hatred, which is fear. In fact we are in an age of fear, and
              today the
              > media broadcasts are basically fear mongering rants. History is
              filled
              > with cases where hatred has propagated across mass populations,
              such as the
              > rise of Nazism in the early 1930s, but scant evidence for any
              similar
              > movement that involves love.
              >
              > When it comes to issues that are relevant to the ER forum, I think
              that the
              > only way these problems have any chance of being successfully
              addressed is
              > through reasoning. The prospect of a die-off, or die-out, is
              there, but it
              > should not become a causal reasoning for triage politics or
              similar ideas
              > that can realistically only lead to warfare and holocaust that
              will consume
              > us all.
              >
              > Finally, there is a personal aspect to this. I have far more
              interesting
              > things to devote my mind to over dark ideas about how WE should
              execute
              > various ghastly plans against THEM. For the sake of my personal
              happiness
              > I would just assume not indulge in these patterns of thought. To
              be honest
              > I think that if people at large agreed to do the same that many of
              the
              > problems of our world would abate. Yet on the personal level I
              would just
              > assume not waste my mind on this sort of ugly rot. At this point
              my
              > thoughts on these matters are mostly personal, but maybe other
              people will
              > make a similar personal committment to do some mental cleanup of
              their
              > mindscapes as well.
              >
              > Lawrence B. Crowell
              >
              > So close no matter how far
              > couldn't be much more from the heart
              > forever trusting who we are
              > and nothing else matters
              >
              > never opened myself this way
              > life is ours, we live it our way
              > all these words I don't just say
              > and nothing else matters
              >
              > trust I seek and I find in you
              > every day for us something new
              > open mind for a different view
              > and nothing else matters
              >
              > never cared for what they do
              > never cared for what they know
              > but I know
              >
              > so close no matter how far
              > couldn't be much more from the heart
              > forever trusting who we are
              > and nothing else matters
              >
              > never cared for what they do
              > never cared for what they know
              > but I know
              >
              > never opened myself this way
              > life is ours, we live it our way
              > all these words I don't just say
              >
              > trust I seek and I find in you
              > every day for us something new
              > open mind for a different view
              > and nothing else matters
              >
              > never cared for what they say
              > never cared for games they play
              > never cared for what they do
              > never cared for what they know
              > and I know
              >
              > so close no matter how far
              > couldn't be much more from the heart
              > forever trusting who we are
              > no nothing else matters
              >
              > "Nothing Else Matters" by Metallica
              >
              >
              >
              > For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the
              movement either
              > of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the
              necessarily
              > unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible
              relatively to
              > things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to
              the thing
              > seen and the spectator.
              >
              > "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus
            • Jean Harris
              Hmm... In light of this great outpouring, I can t help remembering your low opinion of women, Lawrence. You don t seem to have grasped the implications of
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Hmm... In light of this great outpouring, I can't help remembering
                your low opinion of women, Lawrence. You don't seem to have grasped
                the implications of such excellent books as Demonic Males or The Dark
                Side of Man which reveal the reasons we are as we are. This age we
                are in is no different from any other as far as our basic nature is
                concerned. We merely have more opportunity to do ourselves damage
                and are proceeding accordingly.

                I hate to tell you this, but you certainly don't know anything about
                Gandhi: http://eserver.org/history/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt Oh,
                well. You aren't alone. Most people go all stary-eyed over that
                creepy old pervert, obviously without a clue as to what he was really
                like.

                This thread doesn't seem to have much to do with energy resources.

                Jean Harris


                "Lawrence B. Crowell" <lcrowell@...> wrote:

                >The dichotomy between love and hate is interesting. It appears to me that
                >love is something that is most strong between people who know each other.
                >I see little evidence for what might be called universal love or love that
                >encompasses the mass of humanity. The numbers of people who might exhibit
                >this, such as Mohadas Ghandi, are very few. Hatred on the other hand is
                >almost scale invariant. Hate can range from the personal to the
                >transnational. I will also say this of the emotional hand maiden of
                >hatred, which is fear. In fact we are in an age of fear, and today the
                >media broadcasts are basically fear mongering rants. History is filled
                >with cases where hatred has propagated across mass populations, such as the
                >rise of Nazism in the early 1930s, but scant evidence for any similar
                >movement that involves love.

                and much, much more
              • arthurcnoll
                ... context. Because the rest of what I said was to basically say, I m not worried about sending people to the wolves because I m not going to do it. They
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- Relax, Lawrence. You focus on this line and take it out of
                  context. Because the rest of what I said was to basically say, I'm
                  not worried about sending people to the wolves because I'm not going
                  to do it. They are sending themselves, I don't have to lift a
                  finger. All I intend to do is tell them what they are doing. People
                  happily committing suicide might either stop, because they were
                  really unaware of what they were doing, or they might well redouble
                  their pace to show me how wrong I am. We often see denial about the
                  issues we talk about here, how could I not expect to see more of it?
                  If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother, would I? I care about people. I
                  don't like to see them committing mass suicide, but I'm realistic at
                  the same time about the possible reactions from trying to tell them.

                  People who take things out of context can be dangerous too...
                  People who hate irrationally like to take things out of context and
                  try to smear people that way. I don't want to say that this is what
                  you are doing, maybe it was just a knee jerk reaction to those words,
                  and smearing me was not on your mind. But I'm feeling like I'm
                  wiping off mud all the same.

                  Arthur
                  Sacramento



                  In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence B. Crowell"
                  <lcrowell@s...> wrote:
                  > At 06:52 PM 12/1/03 -0000, you wrote:
                  > >---
                  > > I'm not troubled about the possibility of sending people to the
                  > >wolves, as you put it.
                  >
                  > I am only going at this time to concentrate on these opening
                  words. This
                  > is because this sentence hits the core of the problem.
                  >
                  > In recent times our world has become increasingly fractured by
                  emergent and
                  > growing hate agendas. This has been particularly the case since
                  Osama bin
                  > Ladin did his first shot in what could be a global upheaval. There
                  have
                  > been growing hate thought trends that has infected our society.
                  Consider
                  > the talk radio, shock jock shows, Rush Limbaugh, and G. Liddy
                  calling for
                  > "head shots," that has grown up over the past 12 years. These
                  shrill
                  > voices appeal to the most visceral and ugly aspects of the human
                  character,
                  > and the media has learned that hate sells.
                  >
                  > Oh and by the way Limbaugh is a racist! They guy is completely
                  consumed by
                  > it, and couldn't keep his fat mouth shut about it during a football
                  game
                  > commentary! The last place one should dis black people, even if
                  your are a
                  > stinking racist, is on a sports program!
                  >
                  > The problem with the line, "I'm not troubled about the possibility
                  of
                  > sending people to the wolves," is that this is not that far from
                  somebody
                  > saying in 1942 Germany, "I could care less if Jews are being sent in
                  > boxcars to death camps." There is a parallel thinking here, and it
                  is a
                  > dark form of thinking. If we are not able to get tabs on our minds
                  and
                  > what we are saying, thinking and doing, then these hate agendas
                  could
                  > consume us all. And if I had a calibrated hate-meter, I would
                  probably
                  > find that the social hate levels in our society and the world at
                  large are
                  > on the increase these days. This is a pernicious virus, or brain
                  meme if
                  > you will, that is infecting our world at an alarming rate. Hate
                  can kill,
                  > and when it infects a mass number of people, it kills in mass
                  numbers.
                  >
                  > Consider that the recent emergent hate agendas involve monotheisitic
                  > religions to a large degree. Both Christianity and Islam have quite
                  > telling stories about how God, Jesus or Allah is going to come to
                  reassert
                  > HIS authority with violent and dire consequences for unbelievers.
                  There is
                  > a quirky messianic trend amongst Israelis these days, in particular
                  with
                  > the west bank settlers. The problem is that Bush and his Cabal of
                  felons
                  > are convinced they are a part of God's plan for the end time final
                  battle.
                  > Similar apocolyptic statements and fatwahs by Islamic clerics
                  pollute the
                  > social mindscape as well. Well given that our world bristles with
                  nuclear
                  > weapons, a continued expansion of these hate agendas in our world
                  could be
                  > interesting!
                  >
                  > The dichotomy between love and hate is interesting. It appears to
                  me that
                  > love is something that is most strong between people who know each
                  other.
                  > I see little evidence for what might be called universal love or
                  love that
                  > encompasses the mass of humanity. The numbers of people who might
                  exhibit
                  > this, such as Mohadas Ghandi, are very few. Hatred on the other
                  hand is
                  > almost scale invariant. Hate can range from the personal to the
                  > transnational. I will also say this of the emotional hand maiden of
                  > hatred, which is fear. In fact we are in an age of fear, and today
                  the
                  > media broadcasts are basically fear mongering rants. History is
                  filled
                  > with cases where hatred has propagated across mass populations,
                  such as the
                  > rise of Nazism in the early 1930s, but scant evidence for any
                  similar
                  > movement that involves love.
                  >
                  > When it comes to issues that are relevant to the ER forum, I think
                  that the
                  > only way these problems have any chance of being successfully
                  addressed is
                  > through reasoning. The prospect of a die-off, or die-out, is
                  there, but it
                  > should not become a causal reasoning for triage politics or similar
                  ideas
                  > that can realistically only lead to warfare and holocaust that will
                  consume
                  > us all.
                  >
                  > Finally, there is a personal aspect to this. I have far more
                  interesting
                  > things to devote my mind to over dark ideas about how WE should
                  execute
                  > various ghastly plans against THEM. For the sake of my personal
                  happiness
                  > I would just assume not indulge in these patterns of thought. To
                  be honest
                  > I think that if people at large agreed to do the same that many of
                  the
                  > problems of our world would abate. Yet on the personal level I
                  would just
                  > assume not waste my mind on this sort of ugly rot. At this point my
                  > thoughts on these matters are mostly personal, but maybe other
                  people will
                  > make a similar personal committment to do some mental cleanup of
                  their
                  > mindscapes as well.
                  >
                  > Lawrence B. Crowell
                  >
                  > So close no matter how far
                  > couldn't be much more from the heart
                  > forever trusting who we are
                  > and nothing else matters
                  >
                  > never opened myself this way
                  > life is ours, we live it our way
                  > all these words I don't just say
                  > and nothing else matters
                  >
                  > trust I seek and I find in you
                  > every day for us something new
                  > open mind for a different view
                  > and nothing else matters
                  >
                  > never cared for what they do
                  > never cared for what they know
                  > but I know
                  >
                  > so close no matter how far
                  > couldn't be much more from the heart
                  > forever trusting who we are
                  > and nothing else matters
                  >
                  > never cared for what they do
                  > never cared for what they know
                  > but I know
                  >
                  > never opened myself this way
                  > life is ours, we live it our way
                  > all these words I don't just say
                  >
                  > trust I seek and I find in you
                  > every day for us something new
                  > open mind for a different view
                  > and nothing else matters
                  >
                  > never cared for what they say
                  > never cared for games they play
                  > never cared for what they do
                  > never cared for what they know
                  > and I know
                  >
                  > so close no matter how far
                  > couldn't be much more from the heart
                  > forever trusting who we are
                  > no nothing else matters
                  >
                  > "Nothing Else Matters" by Metallica
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For every apparent change in place occurs on account of the
                  movement either
                  > of the thing seen or of the spectator, or on account of the
                  necessarily
                  > unequal movement of both. For no movement is perceptible
                  relatively to
                  > things moved equally in the same direction; I mean relatively to
                  the thing
                  > seen and the spectator.
                  >
                  > "Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres" sec 5 Nicolous Copernicus
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