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Re: [energyresources] wood to gasoline convesion

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  • Jeff Clark
    Alan, are you referring to wood gasification, such as was common in Europe during World War II? Also, you cite wood as having 6000 btus per oven dry pound.
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
      Alan, are you referring to wood gasification, such as was common in Europe
      during World War II? Also, you cite wood as having "6000 btus per oven dry
      pound." Key phrase being oven dry -- where does the energy come from to
      operate those ovens/kilns and how does that affect your calculations? You
      also mention that "a normal acre in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per
      acre." Are you talking dry tons per acre? The usual rule of thumb up here in
      hardwood growth is one cord per acre per year, but the weight varies
      considerably depending on whether it's green or dry. Does the 2-4 tons range
      include both hardwood and softwood growth? And, like Perry, I too would like
      more information on methods of conversion and the machinery necessary to
      accomplish it. Many thanks for broaching the subject.


      on 10/31/00 7:57 PM, perry arnett at pjarnett@... wrote:

      > Alan,
      >
      > you have opened a subject we've all been waiting for, for years!! if you
      > don't mind, may I ask the following ?
      >
      > 1) to what methods of 'conversion' do you refer, and can you cite the
      > chemistry, or methodology, or manufacturer, make and model, of the devices
      > used to do this conversion? i.e. where can I buy one?
      >
      > 2) when you state " This level of production does not involve any other
      > expenditures of energy for the growth of that quantity of energy ", how
      > does this 'machine' or process or other device accomplish the conversion of
      > wood to gasolline? i.e. how is this machine driven or powered and how much
      > energy does it consume to accomplish this conversion?
      >
      > thanks,
      >
      > Perry
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Alan Page <afmo@...>
      > To: <energyresources@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:20
      > Subject: Re: [energyresources] oil as time quantity
      >
      >
      >> Derek,
      >> A gallon of gasoline has about 120,000btus per gal. A pound of wood has
      >> about 6000btus per oven dry pound. Conversion of wood to oil, gasoline,
      >> or natural gas is possible with varying degrees of efficiency generally
      >> greater than 50% conversion ofd wood to other fuel. So at 50%
      >> conversion efficiency it would take 40lbs of wood per gallon of fuel
      >> produced. A normal acrea in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per acre
      >> per year so about 1-200 gallons of fuel could be generated from those
      >> acres if all the production were so allocated. This level of production
      >> does not involve any other expenditures of energy for the growth of that
      >> quantity of energy.
      >> Alan Page
      >
    • Robert Holmes
      I know of no way to directly turn wood into gasoline. I could get you methanol, and work a way to strip the hydroxyl group off to get methane, then polymerize
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
        I know of no way to directly turn wood into gasoline. I could get you
        methanol, and work a way to strip the hydroxyl group off to get methane,
        then polymerize it to get gasoline molecules. Too much work and energy. It
        would be better to burn the methanol directly or reform it to hydrogen for
        use in a fuel cell. Bob

        -----Original Message-----
        From: perry arnett [mailto:pjarnett@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 7:58 PM
        To: energyresources@egroups.com
        Subject: [energyresources] wood to gasoline convesion


        Alan,

        you have opened a subject we've all been waiting for, for years!! if you
        don't mind, may I ask the following ?

        1) to what methods of 'conversion' do you refer, and can you cite the
        chemistry, or methodology, or manufacturer, make and model, of the devices
        used to do this conversion? i.e. where can I buy one?

        2) when you state " This level of production does not involve any other
        expenditures of energy for the growth of that quantity of energy ", how
        does this 'machine' or process or other device accomplish the conversion of
        wood to gasolline? i.e. how is this machine driven or powered and how much
        energy does it consume to accomplish this conversion?

        thanks,

        Perry


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Alan Page <afmo@...>
        To: <energyresources@egroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:20
        Subject: Re: [energyresources] oil as time quantity


        > Derek,
        > A gallon of gasoline has about 120,000btus per gal. A pound of wood has
        > about 6000btus per oven dry pound. Conversion of wood to oil, gasoline,
        > or natural gas is possible with varying degrees of efficiency generally
        > greater than 50% conversion ofd wood to other fuel. So at 50%
        > conversion efficiency it would take 40lbs of wood per gallon of fuel
        > produced. A normal acrea in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per acre
        > per year so about 1-200 gallons of fuel could be generated from those
        > acres if all the production were so allocated. This level of production
        > does not involve any other expenditures of energy for the growth of that
        > quantity of energy.
        > Alan Page




        Your message didn't show up on the list? See http://dieoff.com/FAQ.htm
      • D Mills
        The figure I have seen both in European and Australian literature is about 10cubic metres a hectare in temperate climates. Range (5 to 15)The moisture content
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2000
          The figure I have seen both in European and Australian literature is about
          10cubic metres a hectare in temperate climates. Range (5 to 15)The moisture
          content 10 to 15% depending on season and age of the timber.

          Figures of 20 plus are being achieved in planations by these are not
          ecologically sustainable without the myriad energy subsidies.

          For the same reason we chould question the wisdom of any monoculture. The
          Europeans are abandoning monculture forestry because they have found it
          ecologically unsustainable and are reverting to continous cover, natural
          structure forestry.That is before considering the energy issue. The
          sustainable energy market now makes this type of forestry much more
          attractive, ie) a market for waste and cull stock.

          Duncan Mills

          ----------
          > From: Jeff Clark <jclark@...>
          > To: energyresources@egroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [energyresources] wood to gasoline convesion
          > Date: Thursday, 2 November 2000 0:52
          >
          >
          > Alan, are you referring to wood gasification, such as was common in
          Europe
          > during World War II? Also, you cite wood as having "6000 btus per oven
          dry
          > pound." Key phrase being oven dry -- where does the energy come from to
          > operate those ovens/kilns and how does that affect your calculations? You
          > also mention that "a normal acre in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per
          > acre." Are you talking dry tons per acre? The usual rule of thumb up here
          in
          > hardwood growth is one cord per acre per year, but the weight varies
          > considerably depending on whether it's green or dry. Does the 2-4 tons
          range
          > include both hardwood and softwood growth? And, like Perry, I too would
          like
          > more information on methods of conversion and the machinery necessary to
          > accomplish it. Many thanks for broaching the subject.
          >
          >
          > on 10/31/00 7:57 PM, perry arnett at pjarnett@... wrote:
          >
          > > Alan,
          > >
          > > you have opened a subject we've all been waiting for, for years!! if
          you
          > > don't mind, may I ask the following ?
          > >
          > > 1) to what methods of 'conversion' do you refer, and can you cite the
          > > chemistry, or methodology, or manufacturer, make and model, of the
          devices
          > > used to do this conversion? i.e. where can I buy one?
          > >
          > > 2) when you state " This level of production does not involve any
          other
          > > expenditures of energy for the growth of that quantity of energy ",
          how
          > > does this 'machine' or process or other device accomplish the
          conversion of
          > > wood to gasolline? i.e. how is this machine driven or powered and how
          much
          > > energy does it consume to accomplish this conversion?
          > >
          > > thanks,
          > >
          > > Perry
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Alan Page <afmo@...>
          > > To: <energyresources@egroups.com>
          > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:20
          > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] oil as time quantity
          > >
          > >
          > >> Derek,
          > >> A gallon of gasoline has about 120,000btus per gal. A pound of wood
          has
          > >> about 6000btus per oven dry pound. Conversion of wood to oil,
          gasoline,
          > >> or natural gas is possible with varying degrees of efficiency
          generally
          > >> greater than 50% conversion ofd wood to other fuel. So at 50%
          > >> conversion efficiency it would take 40lbs of wood per gallon of fuel
          > >> produced. A normal acrea in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per acre
          > >> per year so about 1-200 gallons of fuel could be generated from those
          > >> acres if all the production were so allocated. This level of
          production
          > >> does not involve any other expenditures of energy for the growth of
          that
          > >> quantity of energy.
          > >> Alan Page
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your message didn't show up on the list? See http://dieoff.com/FAQ.htm
          >
        • Karl Davies
          ... Here in western Massachusetts, the published range (Natural Resource Conservation Service) is from 2-3 cubic meters per hectare per year for hardwoods, up
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 3, 2000
            D Mills wrote:

            > The figure I have seen both in European and Australian literature is about
            > 10cubic metres a hectare in temperate climates. Range (5 to 15)The moisture
            > content 10 to 15% depending on season and age of the timber.

            Here in western Massachusetts, the published range (Natural Resource
            Conservation Service) is from 2-3 cubic meters per hectare per year for
            hardwoods, up to 6-9 for softwoods. But that's at culmination of mean
            annual
            increment (CMAI = the age of maximum productivity of fully stocked
            natural
            stands of trees), which is not the same as average annual increment and
            which
            would be 20-30% less. The numbers are for stem wood, which might be
            considered
            the sustainable product yield--at CMAI.

            The 10-15% moisture content would be for air-dried wood. Weights of
            various
            woods are at http://www.e-wood.com/ref/weights.asp

            KD
          • Alan Page
            I would concur that natural structure forestry is preferable in the long term to intensive plantation forestry. Luckly here in NE USA it is so rocky that
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 5, 2000
              I would concur that natural structure forestry is preferable in the long
              term to intensive plantation forestry. Luckly here in NE USA it is so
              rocky that anything but natural regeneration of forests is too difficult
              to do over much of the area, and regeneration is established rather
              quickly without drastic measures. We do need to do regular thinnings to
              make sure that the best individuals and species are not lost in early
              mortality.

              D Mills wrote:
              >
              > The figure I have seen both in European and Australian literature is about
              > 10cubic metres a hectare in temperate climates. Range (5 to 15)The moisture
              > content 10 to 15% depending on season and age of the timber.
              >
              > Figures of 20 plus are being achieved in planations by these are not
              > ecologically sustainable without the myriad energy subsidies.
              >
              > For the same reason we chould question the wisdom of any monoculture. The
              > Europeans are abandoning monculture forestry because they have found it
              > ecologically unsustainable and are reverting to continous cover, natural
              > structure forestry.That is before considering the energy issue. The
              > sustainable energy market now makes this type of forestry much more
              > attractive, ie) a market for waste and cull stock.
              >
              > Duncan Mills
              >
              > ----------
              > > From: Jeff Clark <jclark@...>
              > > To: energyresources@egroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] wood to gasoline convesion
              > > Date: Thursday, 2 November 2000 0:52
              > >
              > >
              >> Alan, are you referring to wood gasification, such as was common in Europe
              >> during World War II?
              There are many new techniques being tested. They include conversion to
              alcohol, methane, or pyrolytic distillation byproducts. The fast
              pyrolisis conversion method is currently under patent restrictions and
              in
              pilot testing in Vancover by Dynamotive and others at various places.
              You can search for their website. Methanation is a very interesting
              method of fuel conversion because it produces no NOx, can be done wet,
              and retains all the nutrients in the humic residue. It seems to me that
              eventually it will be common to have both a fast pyrolisis systems and a
              methanation system in every meighborhood. Kermit has advocated this
              technique several times recently.

              It is not possible to use many of these techniques commercially or
              privately largely because our govt and industry has seen fit to direct
              investment into unsustainable channels. Yet in the long run it will be
              the next wave of real community stability if things do not fall apart
              too fast.

              >>Also, you cite wood as having "6000 btus per oven dry
              >> pound." Key phrase being oven dry -- where does the energy come from to
              >> operate those ovens/kilns and how does that affect your calculations?

              It is important only in so far as those processes used for breakdown /
              conversion of wood may require a fully dry raw material. Methanation
              and alcohol production generally occur in a wet medium. So there it
              only is a common reference point. For instance, some softwoods can have
              regions of the stem where the moisture content is over 300% of the dry
              weight of wood.

              In some cases it is possible to use low quality heat to do the drying
              before ehausting the heat to the air.

              >>You also mention that "a normal acre in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per
              >> acre." Are you talking dry tons per acre?

              Yes.

              >>The usual rule of thumb up here in hardwood growth is one cord per acre per year, but the weight varies
              >> considerably depending on whether it's green or dry.

              We generally figure that a green cord weighs between 4000 (for light
              softwoods) to over 6000lbs for dense green hardwoods. There are tables
              available for the conversion of cords to odtons for each species.

              >>Does the 2-4 tons range include both hardwood and softwood growth? And, like Perry, I too would like
              >> more information on methods of conversion and the machinery necessary to
              >> accomplish it. Many thanks for broaching the subject.
              > >
              > >
              > > on 10/31/00 7:57 PM, perry arnett at pjarnett@... wrote:
              > >
              > > > Alan,
              > > >
              > > > you have opened a subject we've all been waiting for, for years!! if
              > you
              > > > don't mind, may I ask the following ?
              > > >
              > > > 1) to what methods of 'conversion' do you refer, and can you cite the
              > > > chemistry, or methodology, or manufacturer, make and model, of the
              > devices
              > > > used to do this conversion? i.e. where can I buy one?

              Thanks to the lack of a sane energy policy and general greed of the
              corporate world you can not buy anything but very expensive pilot or
              initial commercial offerings. At this point the developeres are all
              pushing large commercial systems (over 100 tons per day) inorder to
              appear economically feasible. Jay has amply demonstrated that economics
              is an inappropriate measure for energy systems in all but the shortest
              of timeframe calculations. So do the homework by searching for energy
              conversion systems - most developers have webpages these days. If there
              is enough interest I'm sure that some of us will put a listing together,
              but it hasn't been worth my while as I can't get anyone interested in
              helping small startup situations.

              > > > 2) when you state " This level of production does not involve any other
              > > > expenditures of energy for the growth of that quantity of energy ", how does this 'machine' or process >>>or other device accomplish the conversion of wood to gasolline? i.e. how is this machine driven or >>>powered and how much energy does it consume to accomplish this conversion?
              > > >

              The Dynamotive website is quite descriptive and would be a better source
              of information than my summarizing it here. However, I have not found
              conversion rate data in their publications. I used the figure of 50%
              conversion efficiency as a rough guess in my original statement - I
              continue to believe that the actual figure will be somewhat higher than
              that when all the bugs are worked out.
              Alan Page, Director
              A Forest Maintenance Organization

              > > > thanks,
              > > >
              > > > Perry
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: Alan Page <afmo@...>
              > > > To: <energyresources@egroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 09:20
              > > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] oil as time quantity
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >> Derek,
              > > >> A gallon of gasoline has about 120,000btus per gal. A pound of wood
              > has
              > > >> about 6000btus per oven dry pound. Conversion of wood to oil,
              > gasoline,
              > > >> or natural gas is possible with varying degrees of efficiency
              > generally
              > > >> greater than 50% conversion ofd wood to other fuel. So at 50%
              > > >> conversion efficiency it would take 40lbs of wood per gallon of fuel
              > > >> produced. A normal acrea in the NE USA stores about 2-4 tons per acre
              > > >> per year so about 1-200 gallons of fuel could be generated from those
              > > >> acres if all the production were so allocated. This level of
              > production
              > > >> does not involve any other expenditures of energy for the growth of
              > that
              > > >> quantity of energy.
              > > >> Alan Page
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your message didn't show up on the list? See http://dieoff.com/FAQ.htm
              > >
              >
              > Your message didn't show up on the list? See http://dieoff.com/FAQ.htm
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