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RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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  • S Morningthunder
    ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
      > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
      >
      >
      > Steve Morningthunder wrote:
      > >>>I made my effort at
      > http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
      > includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
      > energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
      >
      > Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
      > to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
      > system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
      > temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

      No, I didn't leave it out.


      "And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
      It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
      additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
      the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
      hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
      before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
      rest of society can work with."

      There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
      treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

      --
      A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
      evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

      Steve Morningthunder

      mthunder@...
      http://greatchange.org
    • Jacob Lund Fisker
      ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
        On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

        > But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
        > high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

        For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
        just

        NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

        or

        nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

        k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
        of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

        As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
        increase.

        Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
        process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
        requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
        probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
        generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

        --
        Jacob Lund Fisker
        PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
        http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
      • Andrew MacKillop
        DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
          DINOSAURS

          Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
          about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
          Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
          got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
          Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
          wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

          Please contact me if you have ideas

          A McKillop
        • Jack Dingler
          Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
            Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
            between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

            Jack Dingler

            --- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: b [mailto:b@...]
            > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
            > > To: S Morningthunder
            > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
            > >
            > > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
            > > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
            > > the same philosophical weight.
            >
            > I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
            > 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
            > inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
            > jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
            > worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
            >
            > The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
            >
            > >
            > > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
            > >
            > It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
            > who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
            > $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
            > its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
            >
            > You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
            > stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
            > Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
            >
            > --
            > The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
            > with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
            > slay game when the wind is white with winter.
            >
            > Steve Morningthunder
            >
            > mthunder@g...
            > http://greatchange.org
          • b
            Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
              Hi S,

              Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:


              >> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
              >>
              SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
              SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
              SM> $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
              SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

              See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

              b
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