## RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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• ... I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy that it would take
Message 1 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:36 AM
> To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
>
>
> Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
> generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate
> electricity to generate hydrogen? How many joules of
> electrical power does it take to generate one gigajoule of
> hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
> take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional energy that
it would take is treated.

--
I once assumed that humankind had matured beyond the dangers of its own
ignorance, that progress was bound to be essentially unbroken and
continuous, the lessons yet to be learned small and welcome.

Steve Morningthunder

mthunder@...
http://greatchange.org
• ... http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy thatit would take is treated.
Message 2 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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Steve Morningthunder wrote:
http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
energy thatit would take is treated.<<<

Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity to
hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery system?
Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient temperature and
pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

We have two choices, either to liquefy it then truck it to where
it is to be consumed or to pressurize it and then pipe it to a
distribution point where it can then be placed in pressurized
tank trucks and delivered to the service stations.

To liquefy hydrogen is an extremely energy intensive process.
Long trains of cascading cooling systems would be needed. Then
the hydrogen would have to be allowed to boil off continuously
until it is consumed. I think this system would be out of the
question. That leaves us with the pressurized system.

But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would
severly limit the range of hydrogen powered automobils because
of the limited amount of pressurized hydrogen they could carry.
And even if they used fuel cells, the hydrogen would still have
to be delivered to the cell recharging plants. But I have
absolutely no doubt that this pressurizing and delivery process
would add considerably to the cost of hydrogen as fuel.

Does anyone else?

Ron Patterson

=====
- So let us recognize human mysticism for what it really is: the rusting Excalibur of our species, an old and vital streak of genetic madness that once rescued our kind from the brink of extinction, took us to the stars, and will run us through with due dispatch when our little play is done. Ultimately, I have no real argument with mysticism, nor even with the fear and ignorance on which it feeds. The frail, the fearful, and the foolish�these are my kind of animals.
Reg Morrison, last paragraph in �The Spirit in the Gene�.

__________________________________________________
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• Hi Steve, Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote: SM I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to SM members of this group.
Message 3 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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Hi Steve,

Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote:

SM> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
SM> members of this group. Obviously, I am limited as to
SM> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
SM> whether you would wear it.

Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry the same
philosophical weight.

How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?

(My dad used to have a furniture conditioner that was labeled as crude
oil, but I don't know if that was a brand name or the real McCoy)
--
Cheers,

b
mailto:b@...
• Steve- Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love to have- and pledge to wear- the square wire model shown on the web page. I would be
Message 4 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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Steve-

Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love
to have- and pledge to wear- the "square wire" model shown on
the web page. I would be even more comfortable with the idea
second pendant as a gift for my wife, and maybe a few more as
presents for simpatico friends and family. I couldn't find a price
list and hope that I will be able to work something out that is ok
with you. I am honored by the gift, and I believe strongly that art
and artists should be honored with material support for their work.

Thanks again,

Jim Baldauf
Austin

----- Original Message -----
From: "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@...>
To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:52 PM
Subject: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness

> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
> members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
> there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
> consciousness.
>
> If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
> partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
> gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
> choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
> whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
> shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
> that the knots can be pulled against one another.
>
> (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
> jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
> on in this group.)
>
> --
> A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
> upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
> the new.
>
> Steve Morningthunder
>
> mthunder@...
> http://greatchange.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
> Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
• ... I ve got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that inspired me to
Message 5 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: b [mailto:b@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
> To: S Morningthunder
> Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
>
> Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
> bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
> the same philosophical weight.

I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under \$20, and
worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.

The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".

>
> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
>
It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
\$1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.

--
The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
slay game when the wind is white with winter.

Steve Morningthunder

mthunder@...
http://greatchange.org
• ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
Message 6 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
> To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
>
>
> Steve Morningthunder wrote:
> >>>I made my effort at
> http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
> energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
>
> Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
> to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
> system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
> temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

No, I didn't leave it out.

"And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
rest of society can work with."

There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

--
A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

Steve Morningthunder

mthunder@...
http://greatchange.org
• ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
Message 7 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

> But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
> high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
just

NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

or

nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
increase.

Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

--
Jacob Lund Fisker
PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
• DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
Message 8 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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DINOSAURS

Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

A McKillop
• Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
Message 9 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

Jack Dingler

--- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b [mailto:b@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
> > To: S Morningthunder
> > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
> >
> > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
> > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
> > the same philosophical weight.
>
> I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
> 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
> inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
> jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under \$20, and
> worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
>
> The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
>
> >
> > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
> >
> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
> \$1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
>
> You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
> stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
> Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
>
> --
> The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
> with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
> slay game when the wind is white with winter.
>
> Steve Morningthunder
>
> mthunder@g...
> http://greatchange.org
• Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
Message 10 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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Hi S,

Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:

>> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
>>
SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
SM> \$1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

b
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