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RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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  • S Morningthunder
    ... I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy that it would take
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
      > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:36 AM
      > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
      >
      >
      > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
      > generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate
      > electricity to generate hydrogen? How many joules of
      > electrical power does it take to generate one gigajoule of
      > hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
      > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

      I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
      includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional energy that
      it would take is treated.

      --
      I once assumed that humankind had matured beyond the dangers of its own
      ignorance, that progress was bound to be essentially unbroken and
      continuous, the lessons yet to be learned small and welcome.

      Steve Morningthunder

      mthunder@...
      http://greatchange.org
    • Ron Patterson
      ... http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy thatit would take is treated.
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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        Steve Morningthunder wrote:
        >>>I made my effort at
        http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
        includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
        energy thatit would take is treated.<<<

        Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity to
        hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery system?
        Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient temperature and
        pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

        We have two choices, either to liquefy it then truck it to where
        it is to be consumed or to pressurize it and then pipe it to a
        distribution point where it can then be placed in pressurized
        tank trucks and delivered to the service stations.

        To liquefy hydrogen is an extremely energy intensive process.
        Long trains of cascading cooling systems would be needed. Then
        the hydrogen would have to be allowed to boil off continuously
        until it is consumed. I think this system would be out of the
        question. That leaves us with the pressurized system.

        But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
        high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would
        severly limit the range of hydrogen powered automobils because
        of the limited amount of pressurized hydrogen they could carry.
        And even if they used fuel cells, the hydrogen would still have
        to be delivered to the cell recharging plants. But I have
        absolutely no doubt that this pressurizing and delivery process
        would add considerably to the cost of hydrogen as fuel.

        Does anyone else?

        Ron Patterson


        =====
        - So let us recognize human mysticism for what it really is: the rusting Excalibur of our species, an old and vital streak of genetic madness that once rescued our kind from the brink of extinction, took us to the stars, and will run us through with due dispatch when our little play is done. Ultimately, I have no real argument with mysticism, nor even with the fear and ignorance on which it feeds. The frail, the fearful, and the foolish�these are my kind of animals.
        Reg Morrison, last paragraph in �The Spirit in the Gene�.

        __________________________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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      • b
        Hi Steve, Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote: SM I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to SM members of this group.
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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          Hi Steve,

          Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote:

          SM> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
          SM> members of this group. Obviously, I am limited as to
          SM> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
          SM> whether you would wear it.

          Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
          bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry the same
          philosophical weight.

          How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?

          (My dad used to have a furniture conditioner that was labeled as crude
          oil, but I don't know if that was a brand name or the real McCoy)
          --
          Cheers,

          b
          mailto:b@...
        • jfbaldauf
          Steve- Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love to have- and pledge to wear- the square wire model shown on the web page. I would be
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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            Steve-

            Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love
            to have- and pledge to wear- the "square wire" model shown on
            the web page. I would be even more comfortable with the idea
            of accepting one pendant as your kind gift, and of purchasing a
            second pendant as a gift for my wife, and maybe a few more as
            presents for simpatico friends and family. I couldn't find a price
            list and hope that I will be able to work something out that is ok
            with you. I am honored by the gift, and I believe strongly that art
            and artists should be honored with material support for their work.

            Thanks again,

            Jim Baldauf
            Austin



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@...>
            To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:52 PM
            Subject: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness


            > I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
            > members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
            > there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
            > consciousness.
            >
            > If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
            > partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
            > gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
            > choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
            > how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
            > whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
            > shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
            > that the knots can be pulled against one another.
            >
            > (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
            > jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
            > on in this group.)
            >
            > --
            > A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
            > upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
            > the new.
            >
            > Steve Morningthunder
            >
            > mthunder@...
            > http://greatchange.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
            > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
          • S Morningthunder
            ... I ve got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that inspired me to
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: b [mailto:b@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
              > To: S Morningthunder
              > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
              >
              > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
              > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
              > the same philosophical weight.

              I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
              20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
              inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
              jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
              worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.

              The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".

              >
              > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
              >
              It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
              who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
              $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
              its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

              You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
              stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
              Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.

              --
              The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
              with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
              slay game when the wind is white with winter.

              Steve Morningthunder

              mthunder@...
              http://greatchange.org
            • S Morningthunder
              ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
                > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                >
                >
                > Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                > >>>I made my effort at
                > http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                > includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                > energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
                >
                > Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
                > to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
                > system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
                > temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                No, I didn't leave it out.


                "And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
                It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
                additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
                the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
                hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
                before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
                rest of society can work with."

                There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
                treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

                --
                A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
                evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

                Steve Morningthunder

                mthunder@...
                http://greatchange.org
              • Jacob Lund Fisker
                ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                  On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

                  > But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                  > high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

                  For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
                  just

                  NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

                  or

                  nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

                  k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
                  of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

                  As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
                  increase.

                  Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
                  process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
                  requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
                  probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
                  generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

                  --
                  Jacob Lund Fisker
                  PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
                  http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
                • Andrew MacKillop
                  DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                    DINOSAURS

                    Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
                    about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
                    Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
                    got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
                    Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
                    wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

                    Please contact me if you have ideas

                    A McKillop
                  • Jack Dingler
                    Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                      Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
                      between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

                      Jack Dingler

                      --- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                      > > To: S Morningthunder
                      > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                      > >
                      > > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                      > > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                      > > the same philosophical weight.
                      >
                      > I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                      > 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                      > inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                      > jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                      > worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
                      >
                      > The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
                      >
                      > >
                      > > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                      > >
                      > It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                      > who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                      > $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                      > its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
                      >
                      > You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                      > stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                      > Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
                      >
                      > --
                      > The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                      > with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                      > slay game when the wind is white with winter.
                      >
                      > Steve Morningthunder
                      >
                      > mthunder@g...
                      > http://greatchange.org
                    • b
                      Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                        Hi S,

                        Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:


                        >> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                        >>
                        SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                        SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                        SM> $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                        SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                        See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

                        b
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