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Re: Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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  • Jack Dingler
    Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner like Windex would probably be used. Jack Dingler
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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      Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner
      like Windex would probably be used.

      Jack Dingler

      --- In energyresources@y..., "sushik" <oliver_in_van@h...> wrote:
      > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
      > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
      > > than that because you have to leave service areas in between the
      > > panels. They have to be cleaned periodically because of dust and
      > > bird droppings. So it would probably take about twice that much.
      > > Around 300,000 square miles or about 200 million acres. That is a
      > > lot of solar panels.
      >
      > I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
      > would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
      > from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
      > given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
      > know what the proposed solutions are.
      >
      > Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
      > more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
      > (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
      > in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
      > it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
      > heard this issue being addressed.
      >
      > Cheers
      > Oliver
    • sushik
      ... Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely electrolysed, would provide the
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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        --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
        wrote:
        > Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen,
        > I believe water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace
        > the land, any one most any one of them would be able to supply
        > enough water for the operation.

        Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from
        earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely
        electrolysed, would provide the equivalent amount of H2,
        energy-wise, that we currently use in oil (that was my reading of
        all the numbers)...

        Soooo, based on that number, I get a water requirement roughly equal
        to 5% of the flow of the Mississippi, which seems pretty significant
        to me (10E12 liters represents about 19 days flow of the Mississippi
        on average).

        Now, I'm really just interested in this because it seems to be one
        more relevant question in whether or not a "hydrogen economy" is
        feasible; I don't think it is, but this is just another line of
        thought that seems important in explaining why. I think it's
        unlikely that we could use hydrogen in the same relative quantities
        as we do oil now, so perhaps it's a strawman argument, but if
        water is where we plan to get hydrogen from in such a world, I
        think it's important to understand whether this is possible. Given
        the numbers I think providing enough water for such an
        endeavour will be a serious engineering problem, especially given
        the amount of fresh water that we are using for other important
        things.

        Oh well. I'll find something else to dwell on now...

        Cheers
        Oliver
      • Eric Thurston
        ... and ... in ... Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides, the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 17, 2002
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          --- In energyresources@y..., "mduffin3" <murrayv@m...> wrote:
          > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia
          and
          > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
          > than that
          > > because
          >
          > "originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984". Are you guys stuck
          in
          > a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
          > electricity has been published by members of this group several
          > times, and it keeps getting smaller as conversion efficiencies get
          > better. Murray

          Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides,
          the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
          laughable.
          Eric Thurston
        • S Morningthunder
          I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then there can be no
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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            I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
            members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
            there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
            consciousness.

            If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
            partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
            gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
            choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
            how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
            whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
            shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
            that the knots can be pulled against one another.

            (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
            jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
            on in this group.)

            --
            A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
            upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
            the new.

            Steve Morningthunder

            mthunder@...
            http://greatchange.org
          • S Morningthunder
            ... I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy that it would take
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
              > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:36 AM
              > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
              >
              >
              > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
              > generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate
              > electricity to generate hydrogen? How many joules of
              > electrical power does it take to generate one gigajoule of
              > hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
              > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

              I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
              includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional energy that
              it would take is treated.

              --
              I once assumed that humankind had matured beyond the dangers of its own
              ignorance, that progress was bound to be essentially unbroken and
              continuous, the lessons yet to be learned small and welcome.

              Steve Morningthunder

              mthunder@...
              http://greatchange.org
            • Ron Patterson
              ... http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy thatit would take is treated.
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                >>>I made my effort at
                http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                energy thatit would take is treated.<<<

                Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity to
                hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery system?
                Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient temperature and
                pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                We have two choices, either to liquefy it then truck it to where
                it is to be consumed or to pressurize it and then pipe it to a
                distribution point where it can then be placed in pressurized
                tank trucks and delivered to the service stations.

                To liquefy hydrogen is an extremely energy intensive process.
                Long trains of cascading cooling systems would be needed. Then
                the hydrogen would have to be allowed to boil off continuously
                until it is consumed. I think this system would be out of the
                question. That leaves us with the pressurized system.

                But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would
                severly limit the range of hydrogen powered automobils because
                of the limited amount of pressurized hydrogen they could carry.
                And even if they used fuel cells, the hydrogen would still have
                to be delivered to the cell recharging plants. But I have
                absolutely no doubt that this pressurizing and delivery process
                would add considerably to the cost of hydrogen as fuel.

                Does anyone else?

                Ron Patterson


                =====
                - So let us recognize human mysticism for what it really is: the rusting Excalibur of our species, an old and vital streak of genetic madness that once rescued our kind from the brink of extinction, took us to the stars, and will run us through with due dispatch when our little play is done. Ultimately, I have no real argument with mysticism, nor even with the fear and ignorance on which it feeds. The frail, the fearful, and the foolish�these are my kind of animals.
                Reg Morrison, last paragraph in �The Spirit in the Gene�.

                __________________________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
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              • b
                Hi Steve, Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote: SM I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to SM members of this group.
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                  Hi Steve,

                  Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote:

                  SM> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                  SM> members of this group. Obviously, I am limited as to
                  SM> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                  SM> whether you would wear it.

                  Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                  bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry the same
                  philosophical weight.

                  How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?

                  (My dad used to have a furniture conditioner that was labeled as crude
                  oil, but I don't know if that was a brand name or the real McCoy)
                  --
                  Cheers,

                  b
                  mailto:b@...
                • jfbaldauf
                  Steve- Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love to have- and pledge to wear- the square wire model shown on the web page. I would be
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                    Steve-

                    Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love
                    to have- and pledge to wear- the "square wire" model shown on
                    the web page. I would be even more comfortable with the idea
                    of accepting one pendant as your kind gift, and of purchasing a
                    second pendant as a gift for my wife, and maybe a few more as
                    presents for simpatico friends and family. I couldn't find a price
                    list and hope that I will be able to work something out that is ok
                    with you. I am honored by the gift, and I believe strongly that art
                    and artists should be honored with material support for their work.

                    Thanks again,

                    Jim Baldauf
                    Austin



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@...>
                    To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:52 PM
                    Subject: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness


                    > I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                    > members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
                    > there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
                    > consciousness.
                    >
                    > If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
                    > partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
                    > gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
                    > choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
                    > how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                    > whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
                    > shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
                    > that the knots can be pulled against one another.
                    >
                    > (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
                    > jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
                    > on in this group.)
                    >
                    > --
                    > A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
                    > upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
                    > the new.
                    >
                    > Steve Morningthunder
                    >
                    > mthunder@...
                    > http://greatchange.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
                    > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                  • S Morningthunder
                    ... I ve got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that inspired me to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                      > To: S Morningthunder
                      > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                      >
                      > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                      > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                      > the same philosophical weight.

                      I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                      20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                      inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                      jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                      worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.

                      The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".

                      >
                      > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                      >
                      It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                      who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                      $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                      its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                      You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                      stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                      Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.

                      --
                      The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                      with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                      slay game when the wind is white with winter.

                      Steve Morningthunder

                      mthunder@...
                      http://greatchange.org
                    • S Morningthunder
                      ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
                        > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                        >
                        >
                        > Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                        > >>>I made my effort at
                        > http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                        > includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                        > energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
                        >
                        > Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
                        > to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
                        > system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
                        > temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                        No, I didn't leave it out.


                        "And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
                        It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
                        additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
                        the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
                        hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
                        before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
                        rest of society can work with."

                        There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
                        treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

                        --
                        A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
                        evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

                        Steve Morningthunder

                        mthunder@...
                        http://greatchange.org
                      • Jacob Lund Fisker
                        ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                          On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

                          > But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                          > high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

                          For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
                          just

                          NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

                          or

                          nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

                          k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
                          of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

                          As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
                          increase.

                          Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
                          process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
                          requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
                          probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
                          generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

                          --
                          Jacob Lund Fisker
                          PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
                          http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
                        • Andrew MacKillop
                          DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                            DINOSAURS

                            Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
                            about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
                            Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
                            got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
                            Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
                            wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

                            Please contact me if you have ideas

                            A McKillop
                          • Jack Dingler
                            Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                              Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
                              between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

                              Jack Dingler

                              --- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                              > > To: S Morningthunder
                              > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                              > >
                              > > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                              > > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                              > > the same philosophical weight.
                              >
                              > I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                              > 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                              > inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                              > jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                              > worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
                              >
                              > The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
                              >
                              > >
                              > > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                              > >
                              > It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                              > who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                              > $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                              > its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
                              >
                              > You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                              > stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                              > Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
                              >
                              > --
                              > The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                              > with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                              > slay game when the wind is white with winter.
                              >
                              > Steve Morningthunder
                              >
                              > mthunder@g...
                              > http://greatchange.org
                            • b
                              Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                Hi S,

                                Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:


                                >> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                >>
                                SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                SM> $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                                See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

                                b
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