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Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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  • Peter Hill
    If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or 163,000 square miles, or a
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 15, 2002
      If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or 163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas.  Solar Prosperity Corridors ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt, here we come!
       
      Peter Hill
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
      Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

      I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied
      any of it together yet. Here is a quote:
       
       

      Renewable Energy:
      Economic and Environmental Issues
      by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H. Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and S. Boerke

      (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)

      The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr (Voigt 1984).

       

       

       
       
      On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:36:04 -0800 (PST) Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@...> writes:
      > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been generated on
      > the
      > efficiency of using solar panels to generate electricity to
      > generate
      > hydrogen? How many joules of electrical power does it take to
      > generate one
      > gigajoule of hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would
      > it
      > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?
      >
      > What I am asking is, has anyone done the arithmetic? How many
      > square
      > meters of solar panels would it take to provide the hydrogen for
      > one
      > family? Surely Lovins, or some other hydrogen hyper has done the
      > numbers.
      > What are they? Does anyone know?
      >
      > Ron Patterson
      >
      >
      > =====
      > - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
      > never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure
      > within
      > the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
      > triumph over his evil plotting.
      > Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass
      > Movements
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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      > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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      >
      > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
      > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
       
       

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    • Ron Patterson
      That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that because you have
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
        That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
        Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that
        because you have to leave service areas in between the panels. They have
        to be cleaned periodically because of dust and bird droppings. So it would
        probably take about twice that much. Around 300,000 square miles or about
        200 million acres. That is a lot of solar panels.

        When people talk about the coming �hydrogen economy�, with hydrogen being
        generated by solar panels, they never give any figures. Has anyone noticed
        that? They never say how many solar panels, how much they will cost, how
        much farmland they will cover or any of the thousand and one other details
        that must be attended to before such a thing could become a reality.

        Those who fail to do their arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense.

        Ron Patterson

        Peter hill wrote:
        >>>If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area
        required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or
        163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas. Solar Prosperity Corridors
        ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt,
        here we come!<<<

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Dale & Elizabeth Pfeiffer
        To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
        I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied any of it
        together yet. Here is a quote:
        http://www.dieoff.com/page84.htm

        Renewable Energy:
        Economic and Environmental Issues
        by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H.
        Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and
        S. Boerke

        (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)
        The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those
        needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required
        to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity
        (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion
        kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent
        of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel
        needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be
        needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a
        facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion
        kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr
        (Voigt 1984).



        =====
        - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
        never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
        the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
        triumph over his evil plotting.
        Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

        __________________________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
        http://webhosting.yahoo.com
      • sushik
        ... I m interested in the water requirements for this. How much water would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers from the earlier post
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
          --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
          wrote:
          > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
          > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
          > than that because you have to leave service areas in between the
          > panels. They have to be cleaned periodically because of dust and
          > bird droppings. So it would probably take about twice that much.
          > Around 300,000 square miles or about 200 million acres. That is a
          > lot of solar panels.

          I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
          would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
          from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
          given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
          know what the proposed solutions are.

          Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
          more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
          (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
          in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
          it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
          heard this issue being addressed.

          Cheers
          Oliver
        • Ron Patterson
          Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen, I believe water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace the land, any one most any
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
            Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen, I believe
            water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace the land, any one
            most any one of them would be able to supply enough water for the
            operation.

            Ron Patterson

            --- sushik <oliver_in_van@...> wrote:
            > I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
            > would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
            > from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
            > given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
            > know what the proposed solutions are.
            >
            > Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
            > more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
            > (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
            > in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
            > it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
            > heard this issue being addressed.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Oliver
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
            > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


            =====
            - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
            never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
            the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
            triumph over his evil plotting.
            Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

            __________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
            http://webhosting.yahoo.com
          • John Goss
            Personally I d prefer to get rid of Texas rather than Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi, though it is a tough choice. The world will benefit whichever way we
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
              Personally I'd prefer to get rid of Texas rather than Alabama, Georgia and
              Mississippi, though it is a tough choice. The world will benefit whichever
              way we go.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ron Patterson" <readyourdarwin@...>
              To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 3:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question


              > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
              > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that
              > because you have to leave service areas in between the panels. They have
              > to be cleaned periodically because of dust and bird droppings. So it would
              > probably take about twice that much. Around 300,000 square miles or about
              > 200 million acres. That is a lot of solar panels.
              >
              > When people talk about the coming "hydrogen economy", with hydrogen being
              > generated by solar panels, they never give any figures. Has anyone noticed
              > that? They never say how many solar panels, how much they will cost, how
              > much farmland they will cover or any of the thousand and one other details
              > that must be attended to before such a thing could become a reality.
              >
              > Those who fail to do their arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense.
              >
              > Ron Patterson
              >
              > Peter hill wrote:
              > >>>If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area
              > required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or
              > 163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas. Solar Prosperity Corridors
              > ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt,
              > here we come!<<<
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Dale & Elizabeth Pfeiffer
              > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
              > Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
              > I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied any of it
              > together yet. Here is a quote:
              > http://www.dieoff.com/page84.htm
              >
              > Renewable Energy:
              > Economic and Environmental Issues
              > by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H.
              > Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and
              > S. Boerke
              >
              > (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)
              > The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those
              > needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required
              > to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity
              > (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion
              > kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent
              > of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel
              > needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be
              > needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a
              > facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion
              > kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr
              > (Voigt 1984).
              >
              >
              >
              > =====
              > - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
              > never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
              > the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
              > triumph over his evil plotting.
              > Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
              > http://webhosting.yahoo.com
              >
              >
              > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
              > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • mduffin3
              ... than that ... originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984 . Are you guys stuck in a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
                --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                wrote:
                > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
                > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                than that
                > because

                "originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984". Are you guys stuck in
                a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
                electricity has been published by members of this group several
                times, and it keeps getting smaller as conversion efficiencies get
                better. Murray
              • Jack Dingler
                Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner like Windex would probably be used. Jack Dingler
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
                  Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner
                  like Windex would probably be used.

                  Jack Dingler

                  --- In energyresources@y..., "sushik" <oliver_in_van@h...> wrote:
                  > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
                  > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                  > > than that because you have to leave service areas in between the
                  > > panels. They have to be cleaned periodically because of dust and
                  > > bird droppings. So it would probably take about twice that much.
                  > > Around 300,000 square miles or about 200 million acres. That is a
                  > > lot of solar panels.
                  >
                  > I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
                  > would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
                  > from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
                  > given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
                  > know what the proposed solutions are.
                  >
                  > Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
                  > more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
                  > (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
                  > in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
                  > it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
                  > heard this issue being addressed.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > Oliver
                • sushik
                  ... Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely electrolysed, would provide the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
                    --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen,
                    > I believe water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace
                    > the land, any one most any one of them would be able to supply
                    > enough water for the operation.

                    Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from
                    earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely
                    electrolysed, would provide the equivalent amount of H2,
                    energy-wise, that we currently use in oil (that was my reading of
                    all the numbers)...

                    Soooo, based on that number, I get a water requirement roughly equal
                    to 5% of the flow of the Mississippi, which seems pretty significant
                    to me (10E12 liters represents about 19 days flow of the Mississippi
                    on average).

                    Now, I'm really just interested in this because it seems to be one
                    more relevant question in whether or not a "hydrogen economy" is
                    feasible; I don't think it is, but this is just another line of
                    thought that seems important in explaining why. I think it's
                    unlikely that we could use hydrogen in the same relative quantities
                    as we do oil now, so perhaps it's a strawman argument, but if
                    water is where we plan to get hydrogen from in such a world, I
                    think it's important to understand whether this is possible. Given
                    the numbers I think providing enough water for such an
                    endeavour will be a serious engineering problem, especially given
                    the amount of fresh water that we are using for other important
                    things.

                    Oh well. I'll find something else to dwell on now...

                    Cheers
                    Oliver
                  • Eric Thurston
                    ... and ... in ... Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides, the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 17, 2002
                      --- In energyresources@y..., "mduffin3" <murrayv@m...> wrote:
                      > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia
                      and
                      > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                      > than that
                      > > because
                      >
                      > "originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984". Are you guys stuck
                      in
                      > a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
                      > electricity has been published by members of this group several
                      > times, and it keeps getting smaller as conversion efficiencies get
                      > better. Murray

                      Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides,
                      the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
                      laughable.
                      Eric Thurston
                    • S Morningthunder
                      I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then there can be no
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
                        I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                        members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
                        there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
                        consciousness.

                        If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
                        partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
                        gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
                        choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
                        how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                        whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
                        shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
                        that the knots can be pulled against one another.

                        (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
                        jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
                        on in this group.)

                        --
                        A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
                        upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
                        the new.

                        Steve Morningthunder

                        mthunder@...
                        http://greatchange.org
                      • S Morningthunder
                        ... I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy that it would take
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                          > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:36 AM
                          > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                          >
                          >
                          > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
                          > generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate
                          > electricity to generate hydrogen? How many joules of
                          > electrical power does it take to generate one gigajoule of
                          > hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
                          > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

                          I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                          includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional energy that
                          it would take is treated.

                          --
                          I once assumed that humankind had matured beyond the dangers of its own
                          ignorance, that progress was bound to be essentially unbroken and
                          continuous, the lessons yet to be learned small and welcome.

                          Steve Morningthunder

                          mthunder@...
                          http://greatchange.org
                        • Ron Patterson
                          ... http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy thatit would take is treated.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
                            Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                            >>>I made my effort at
                            http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                            includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                            energy thatit would take is treated.<<<

                            Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity to
                            hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery system?
                            Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient temperature and
                            pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                            We have two choices, either to liquefy it then truck it to where
                            it is to be consumed or to pressurize it and then pipe it to a
                            distribution point where it can then be placed in pressurized
                            tank trucks and delivered to the service stations.

                            To liquefy hydrogen is an extremely energy intensive process.
                            Long trains of cascading cooling systems would be needed. Then
                            the hydrogen would have to be allowed to boil off continuously
                            until it is consumed. I think this system would be out of the
                            question. That leaves us with the pressurized system.

                            But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                            high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would
                            severly limit the range of hydrogen powered automobils because
                            of the limited amount of pressurized hydrogen they could carry.
                            And even if they used fuel cells, the hydrogen would still have
                            to be delivered to the cell recharging plants. But I have
                            absolutely no doubt that this pressurizing and delivery process
                            would add considerably to the cost of hydrogen as fuel.

                            Does anyone else?

                            Ron Patterson


                            =====
                            - So let us recognize human mysticism for what it really is: the rusting Excalibur of our species, an old and vital streak of genetic madness that once rescued our kind from the brink of extinction, took us to the stars, and will run us through with due dispatch when our little play is done. Ultimately, I have no real argument with mysticism, nor even with the fear and ignorance on which it feeds. The frail, the fearful, and the foolish�these are my kind of animals.
                            Reg Morrison, last paragraph in �The Spirit in the Gene�.

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
                            http://webhosting.yahoo.com
                          • b
                            Hi Steve, Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote: SM I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to SM members of this group.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
                              Hi Steve,

                              Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote:

                              SM> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                              SM> members of this group. Obviously, I am limited as to
                              SM> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                              SM> whether you would wear it.

                              Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                              bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry the same
                              philosophical weight.

                              How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?

                              (My dad used to have a furniture conditioner that was labeled as crude
                              oil, but I don't know if that was a brand name or the real McCoy)
                              --
                              Cheers,

                              b
                              mailto:b@...
                            • jfbaldauf
                              Steve- Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love to have- and pledge to wear- the square wire model shown on the web page. I would be
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
                                Steve-

                                Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love
                                to have- and pledge to wear- the "square wire" model shown on
                                the web page. I would be even more comfortable with the idea
                                of accepting one pendant as your kind gift, and of purchasing a
                                second pendant as a gift for my wife, and maybe a few more as
                                presents for simpatico friends and family. I couldn't find a price
                                list and hope that I will be able to work something out that is ok
                                with you. I am honored by the gift, and I believe strongly that art
                                and artists should be honored with material support for their work.

                                Thanks again,

                                Jim Baldauf
                                Austin



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@...>
                                To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:52 PM
                                Subject: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness


                                > I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                                > members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
                                > there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
                                > consciousness.
                                >
                                > If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
                                > partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
                                > gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
                                > choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
                                > how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                                > whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
                                > shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
                                > that the knots can be pulled against one another.
                                >
                                > (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
                                > jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
                                > on in this group.)
                                >
                                > --
                                > A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
                                > upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
                                > the new.
                                >
                                > Steve Morningthunder
                                >
                                > mthunder@...
                                > http://greatchange.org
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
                                > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                              • S Morningthunder
                                ... I ve got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that inspired me to
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                                  > To: S Morningthunder
                                  > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                                  >
                                  > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                                  > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                                  > the same philosophical weight.

                                  I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                                  20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                                  inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                                  jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                                  worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.

                                  The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".

                                  >
                                  > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                  >
                                  It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                  who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                  $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                  its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                                  You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                                  stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                                  Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.

                                  --
                                  The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                                  with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                                  slay game when the wind is white with winter.

                                  Steve Morningthunder

                                  mthunder@...
                                  http://greatchange.org
                                • S Morningthunder
                                  ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
                                    > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                                    > >>>I made my effort at
                                    > http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                                    > includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                                    > energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
                                    >
                                    > Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
                                    > to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
                                    > system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
                                    > temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                                    No, I didn't leave it out.


                                    "And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
                                    It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
                                    additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
                                    the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
                                    hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
                                    before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
                                    rest of society can work with."

                                    There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
                                    treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

                                    --
                                    A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
                                    evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

                                    Steve Morningthunder

                                    mthunder@...
                                    http://greatchange.org
                                  • Jacob Lund Fisker
                                    ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
                                      On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

                                      > But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                                      > high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

                                      For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
                                      just

                                      NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

                                      or

                                      nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

                                      k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
                                      of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

                                      As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
                                      increase.

                                      Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
                                      process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
                                      requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
                                      probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
                                      generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

                                      --
                                      Jacob Lund Fisker
                                      PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
                                      http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
                                    • Andrew MacKillop
                                      DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
                                        DINOSAURS

                                        Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
                                        about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
                                        Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
                                        got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
                                        Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
                                        wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

                                        Please contact me if you have ideas

                                        A McKillop
                                      • Jack Dingler
                                        Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
                                          Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
                                          between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

                                          Jack Dingler

                                          --- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                                          > > To: S Morningthunder
                                          > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                                          > >
                                          > > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                                          > > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                                          > > the same philosophical weight.
                                          >
                                          > I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                                          > 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                                          > inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                                          > jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                                          > worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
                                          >
                                          > The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                          > >
                                          > It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                          > who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                          > $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                          > its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
                                          >
                                          > You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                                          > stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                                          > Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                                          > with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                                          > slay game when the wind is white with winter.
                                          >
                                          > Steve Morningthunder
                                          >
                                          > mthunder@g...
                                          > http://greatchange.org
                                        • b
                                          Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
                                            Hi S,

                                            Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:


                                            >> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                            >>
                                            SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                            SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                            SM> $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                            SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                                            See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

                                            b
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