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Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

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  • Ron Patterson
    Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate electricity to generate hydrogen? How
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 15, 2002
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      Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been generated on the
      efficiency of using solar panels to generate electricity to generate
      hydrogen? How many joules of electrical power does it take to generate one
      gigajoule of hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
      take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

      What I am asking is, has anyone done the arithmetic? How many square
      meters of solar panels would it take to provide the hydrogen for one
      family? Surely Lovins, or some other hydrogen hyper has done the numbers.
      What are they? Does anyone know?

      Ron Patterson


      =====
      - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
      never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
      the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
      triumph over his evil plotting.
      Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

      __________________________________________________
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      Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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    • Peter Hill
      If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or 163,000 square miles, or a
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 15, 2002
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        If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or 163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas.  Solar Prosperity Corridors ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt, here we come!
         
        Peter Hill
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question

        I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied
        any of it together yet. Here is a quote:
         
         

        Renewable Energy:
        Economic and Environmental Issues
        by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H. Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and S. Boerke

        (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)

        The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr (Voigt 1984).

         

         

         
         
        On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:36:04 -0800 (PST) Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@...> writes:
        > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been generated on
        > the
        > efficiency of using solar panels to generate electricity to
        > generate
        > hydrogen? How many joules of electrical power does it take to
        > generate one
        > gigajoule of hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would
        > it
        > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?
        >
        > What I am asking is, has anyone done the arithmetic? How many
        > square
        > meters of solar panels would it take to provide the hydrogen for
        > one
        > family? Surely Lovins, or some other hydrogen hyper has done the
        > numbers.
        > What are they? Does anyone know?
        >
        > Ron Patterson
        >
        >
        > =====
        > - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
        > never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure
        > within
        > the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
        > triumph over his evil plotting.
        > Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass
        > Movements
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
        > http://webhosting.yahoo.com
        >
        >
        > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
        > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
         
         

        Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
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      • Dale & Elizabeth Pfeiffer
        I ve been looking into some of this, though I haven t tied any of it together yet. Here is a quote: http://www.dieoff.com/page84.htm Renewable Energy: Economic
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 15, 2002
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          I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied
          any of it together yet. Here is a quote:
           
           

          Renewable Energy:
          Economic and Environmental Issues
          by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H. Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and S. Boerke

          (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)

          The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr (Voigt 1984).

           

           

           
           
          On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:36:04 -0800 (PST) Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@...> writes:
          > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
          generated on
          > the
          > efficiency of using solar panels to generate
          electricity to
          > generate
          > hydrogen? How many joules of electrical
          power does it take to
          > generate one
          > gigajoule of hydrogen
          energy? Then how much additional energy would
          > it
          > take to
          compress and deliver this hydrogen?
          >
          > What I am asking is, has
          anyone done the arithmetic? How many
          > square
          > meters of solar
          panels would it take to provide the hydrogen for
          > one
          > family?
          Surely Lovins, or some other hydrogen hyper has done the
          >
          numbers.
          > What are they? Does anyone know?
          >
          > Ron
          Patterson
          >
          >
          > =====
          > - Mass movements can rise and
          spread without belief in a god, but
          > never without belief in a devil.....
          Every difficulty and failure
          > within
          > the movement is the work of
          the devil, and every success is a
          > triumph over his evil
          plotting.
          > Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass
          > Movements
          >
          >
          __________________________________________________
          > Do you
          Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
          >
          href="http://webhosting.yahoo.com">http://webhosting.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or
          compliments?
          > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at
          href="mailto:t1r@...">t1r@...
          >
          >
          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          >
          href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
           
           
        • Ron Patterson
          That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that because you have
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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            That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
            Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that
            because you have to leave service areas in between the panels. They have
            to be cleaned periodically because of dust and bird droppings. So it would
            probably take about twice that much. Around 300,000 square miles or about
            200 million acres. That is a lot of solar panels.

            When people talk about the coming �hydrogen economy�, with hydrogen being
            generated by solar panels, they never give any figures. Has anyone noticed
            that? They never say how many solar panels, how much they will cost, how
            much farmland they will cover or any of the thousand and one other details
            that must be attended to before such a thing could become a reality.

            Those who fail to do their arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense.

            Ron Patterson

            Peter hill wrote:
            >>>If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area
            required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or
            163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas. Solar Prosperity Corridors
            ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt,
            here we come!<<<

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dale & Elizabeth Pfeiffer
            To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
            Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
            I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied any of it
            together yet. Here is a quote:
            http://www.dieoff.com/page84.htm

            Renewable Energy:
            Economic and Environmental Issues
            by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H.
            Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and
            S. Boerke

            (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)
            The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those
            needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required
            to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity
            (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion
            kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent
            of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel
            needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be
            needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a
            facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion
            kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr
            (Voigt 1984).



            =====
            - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
            never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
            the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
            triumph over his evil plotting.
            Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

            __________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
            http://webhosting.yahoo.com
          • sushik
            ... I m interested in the water requirements for this. How much water would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers from the earlier post
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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              --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
              wrote:
              > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
              > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
              > than that because you have to leave service areas in between the
              > panels. They have to be cleaned periodically because of dust and
              > bird droppings. So it would probably take about twice that much.
              > Around 300,000 square miles or about 200 million acres. That is a
              > lot of solar panels.

              I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
              would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
              from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
              given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
              know what the proposed solutions are.

              Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
              more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
              (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
              in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
              it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
              heard this issue being addressed.

              Cheers
              Oliver
            • Ron Patterson
              Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen, I believe water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace the land, any one most any
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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                Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen, I believe
                water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace the land, any one
                most any one of them would be able to supply enough water for the
                operation.

                Ron Patterson

                --- sushik <oliver_in_van@...> wrote:
                > I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
                > would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
                > from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
                > given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
                > know what the proposed solutions are.
                >
                > Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
                > more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
                > (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
                > in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
                > it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
                > heard this issue being addressed.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Oliver
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
                > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >


                =====
                - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
                never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
                the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
                triumph over his evil plotting.
                Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

                __________________________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
                http://webhosting.yahoo.com
              • John Goss
                Personally I d prefer to get rid of Texas rather than Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi, though it is a tough choice. The world will benefit whichever way we
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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                  Personally I'd prefer to get rid of Texas rather than Alabama, Georgia and
                  Mississippi, though it is a tough choice. The world will benefit whichever
                  way we go.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ron Patterson" <readyourdarwin@...>
                  To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 3:46 AM
                  Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question


                  > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
                  > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more than that
                  > because you have to leave service areas in between the panels. They have
                  > to be cleaned periodically because of dust and bird droppings. So it would
                  > probably take about twice that much. Around 300,000 square miles or about
                  > 200 million acres. That is a lot of solar panels.
                  >
                  > When people talk about the coming "hydrogen economy", with hydrogen being
                  > generated by solar panels, they never give any figures. Has anyone noticed
                  > that? They never say how many solar panels, how much they will cost, how
                  > much farmland they will cover or any of the thousand and one other details
                  > that must be attended to before such a thing could become a reality.
                  >
                  > Those who fail to do their arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense.
                  >
                  > Ron Patterson
                  >
                  > Peter hill wrote:
                  > >>>If the US population is about 285 million, then the nominal area
                  > required for solar collection would be 427,500 square kilometres or
                  > 163,000 square miles, or a big part of Texas. Solar Prosperity Corridors
                  > ( but rather wider than their architects' expectations) and national debt,
                  > here we come!<<<
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Dale & Elizabeth Pfeiffer
                  > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:02 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                  > I've been looking into some of this, though I haven't tied any of it
                  > together yet. Here is a quote:
                  > http://www.dieoff.com/page84.htm
                  >
                  > Renewable Energy:
                  > Economic and Environmental Issues
                  > by David Pimentel, G. Rodrigues, T. Wane, R. Abrams, K. Goldberg, H.
                  > Staecker, E. Ma, L. Brueckner, L. Trovato, C. Chow, U. Govindarajulu, and
                  > S. Boerke
                  >
                  > (Originally published in BioScience -- Vol. 44, No. 8, September 1994)
                  > The material inputs for a hydrogen production facility are primarily those
                  > needed to build a solar electric production facility. The energy required
                  > to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.3 billion kWh of electricity
                  > (Voigt 1984). If current photovoltaics (Table 2) require 2700 ha/1 billion
                  > kWh, then a total area of 3510 ha would be needed to supply the equivalent
                  > of 1 billion kWh of hydrogen fuel. Based on US per capita liquid fuel
                  > needs, a facility covering approximately 0.15 ha (16,300 ft2) would be
                  > needed to produce a year's requirement of liquid hydrogen. In such a
                  > facility, the water requirement for electrolytic production of 1 billion
                  > kWh/yr equivalent of hydrogen is approximately 300 million liters/yr
                  > (Voigt 1984).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > =====
                  > - Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but
                  > never without belief in a devil..... Every difficulty and failure within
                  > the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a
                  > triumph over his evil plotting.
                  > Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
                  > http://webhosting.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
                  > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • mduffin3
                  ... than that ... originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984 . Are you guys stuck in a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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                    --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
                    > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                    than that
                    > because

                    "originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984". Are you guys stuck in
                    a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
                    electricity has been published by members of this group several
                    times, and it keeps getting smaller as conversion efficiencies get
                    better. Murray
                  • Jack Dingler
                    Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner like Windex would probably be used. Jack Dingler
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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                      Water would leave a film, cutting efficiency. An ammonia based cleaner
                      like Windex would probably be used.

                      Jack Dingler

                      --- In energyresources@y..., "sushik" <oliver_in_van@h...> wrote:
                      > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia and
                      > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                      > > than that because you have to leave service areas in between the
                      > > panels. They have to be cleaned periodically because of dust and
                      > > bird droppings. So it would probably take about twice that much.
                      > > Around 300,000 square miles or about 200 million acres. That is a
                      > > lot of solar panels.
                      >
                      > I'm interested in the water requirements for this. How much water
                      > would this require and where would it come from? Using the numbers
                      > from the earlier post I come up with something like 10E12 l/yr, but
                      > given the lack of water in the sunniest spots, I'm interested to
                      > know what the proposed solutions are.
                      >
                      > Presumably seawater could be used though it it likely would require
                      > more water than the theoretical minimum, plus the resulting brine
                      > (high in various salts) would need to be disposed of (hopefully back
                      > in the sea). However water is retrieved the energy costs of bringing
                      > it in and pumping it out have to be kept to a minimum... Never
                      > heard this issue being addressed.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      > Oliver
                    • sushik
                      ... Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely electrolysed, would provide the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 16, 2002
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                        --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Oliver, of all the problem with converting sunlight to hydrogen,
                        > I believe water would be the very least of them. Huge rivers lace
                        > the land, any one most any one of them would be able to supply
                        > enough water for the operation.

                        Hmmm, maybe. The number I came up with (based on the numbers from
                        earlier in this thread) was 10E12 l/yr that, if entirely
                        electrolysed, would provide the equivalent amount of H2,
                        energy-wise, that we currently use in oil (that was my reading of
                        all the numbers)...

                        Soooo, based on that number, I get a water requirement roughly equal
                        to 5% of the flow of the Mississippi, which seems pretty significant
                        to me (10E12 liters represents about 19 days flow of the Mississippi
                        on average).

                        Now, I'm really just interested in this because it seems to be one
                        more relevant question in whether or not a "hydrogen economy" is
                        feasible; I don't think it is, but this is just another line of
                        thought that seems important in explaining why. I think it's
                        unlikely that we could use hydrogen in the same relative quantities
                        as we do oil now, so perhaps it's a strawman argument, but if
                        water is where we plan to get hydrogen from in such a world, I
                        think it's important to understand whether this is possible. Given
                        the numbers I think providing enough water for such an
                        endeavour will be a serious engineering problem, especially given
                        the amount of fresh water that we are using for other important
                        things.

                        Oh well. I'll find something else to dwell on now...

                        Cheers
                        Oliver
                      • Eric Thurston
                        ... and ... in ... Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides, the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 17, 2002
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                          --- In energyresources@y..., "mduffin3" <murrayv@m...> wrote:
                          > --- In energyresources@y..., Ron Patterson <readyourdarwin@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > That would be larger than the three states of Alabama, Georgia
                          and
                          > > Mississippi combined. Of course it would actually be a lot more
                          > than that
                          > > because
                          >
                          > "originally published in 1994 from Voigt 1984". Are you guys stuck
                          in
                          > a zero progress time warp. The area needed to provide x quads of
                          > electricity has been published by members of this group several
                          > times, and it keeps getting smaller as conversion efficiencies get
                          > better. Murray

                          Since 1994 the amount of energy consumed has also gone up. Besides,
                          the areas we are talking about are so vast as to make the concept
                          laughable.
                          Eric Thurston
                        • S Morningthunder
                          I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then there can be no
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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                            I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                            members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
                            there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
                            consciousness.

                            If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
                            partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
                            gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
                            choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
                            how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                            whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
                            shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
                            that the knots can be pulled against one another.

                            (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
                            jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
                            on in this group.)

                            --
                            A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
                            upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
                            the new.

                            Steve Morningthunder

                            mthunder@...
                            http://greatchange.org
                          • S Morningthunder
                            ... I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy that it would take
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 19, 2002
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                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                              > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:36 AM
                              > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                              >
                              >
                              > Question: Does anyone know if any numbers have ever been
                              > generated on the efficiency of using solar panels to generate
                              > electricity to generate hydrogen? How many joules of
                              > electrical power does it take to generate one gigajoule of
                              > hydrogen energy? Then how much additional energy would it
                              > take to compress and deliver this hydrogen?

                              I made my effort at http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                              includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional energy that
                              it would take is treated.

                              --
                              I once assumed that humankind had matured beyond the dangers of its own
                              ignorance, that progress was bound to be essentially unbroken and
                              continuous, the lessons yet to be learned small and welcome.

                              Steve Morningthunder

                              mthunder@...
                              http://greatchange.org
                            • Ron Patterson
                              ... http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which includes a link to entire energy cost where the additional energy thatit would take is treated.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                                >>>I made my effort at
                                http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                                includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                                energy thatit would take is treated.<<<

                                Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity to
                                hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery system?
                                Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient temperature and
                                pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                                We have two choices, either to liquefy it then truck it to where
                                it is to be consumed or to pressurize it and then pipe it to a
                                distribution point where it can then be placed in pressurized
                                tank trucks and delivered to the service stations.

                                To liquefy hydrogen is an extremely energy intensive process.
                                Long trains of cascading cooling systems would be needed. Then
                                the hydrogen would have to be allowed to boil off continuously
                                until it is consumed. I think this system would be out of the
                                question. That leaves us with the pressurized system.

                                But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                                high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would
                                severly limit the range of hydrogen powered automobils because
                                of the limited amount of pressurized hydrogen they could carry.
                                And even if they used fuel cells, the hydrogen would still have
                                to be delivered to the cell recharging plants. But I have
                                absolutely no doubt that this pressurizing and delivery process
                                would add considerably to the cost of hydrogen as fuel.

                                Does anyone else?

                                Ron Patterson


                                =====
                                - So let us recognize human mysticism for what it really is: the rusting Excalibur of our species, an old and vital streak of genetic madness that once rescued our kind from the brink of extinction, took us to the stars, and will run us through with due dispatch when our little play is done. Ultimately, I have no real argument with mysticism, nor even with the fear and ignorance on which it feeds. The frail, the fearful, and the foolish�these are my kind of animals.
                                Reg Morrison, last paragraph in �The Spirit in the Gene�.

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do you Yahoo!?
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                              • b
                                Hi Steve, Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote: SM I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to SM members of this group.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                  Hi Steve,

                                  Tuesday, November 19, 2002, 11:52:16 PM, you wrote:

                                  SM> I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                                  SM> members of this group. Obviously, I am limited as to
                                  SM> how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                                  SM> whether you would wear it.

                                  Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                                  bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry the same
                                  philosophical weight.

                                  How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?

                                  (My dad used to have a furniture conditioner that was labeled as crude
                                  oil, but I don't know if that was a brand name or the real McCoy)
                                  --
                                  Cheers,

                                  b
                                  mailto:b@...
                                • jfbaldauf
                                  Steve- Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love to have- and pledge to wear- the square wire model shown on the web page. I would be
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                    Steve-

                                    Thank you for the kind offer of dino-blood pendants. I would love
                                    to have- and pledge to wear- the "square wire" model shown on
                                    the web page. I would be even more comfortable with the idea
                                    of accepting one pendant as your kind gift, and of purchasing a
                                    second pendant as a gift for my wife, and maybe a few more as
                                    presents for simpatico friends and family. I couldn't find a price
                                    list and hope that I will be able to work something out that is ok
                                    with you. I am honored by the gift, and I believe strongly that art
                                    and artists should be honored with material support for their work.

                                    Thanks again,

                                    Jim Baldauf
                                    Austin



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@...>
                                    To: <energyresources@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:52 PM
                                    Subject: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness


                                    > I have decided to give away some of the Dinosaur blood symbols to
                                    > members of this group. After all, if I am the only one wearing it, then
                                    > there can be no functioning as a symbol expressing a group
                                    > consciousness.
                                    >
                                    > If you think you would wear a dinosaur blood pendant, a small glass tube
                                    > partially filled with crude oil and heat forged unto a handmade 14 kt
                                    > gold finding, check out http://greatchange.org/dinosaurblood/index.html,
                                    > choose a pendant design and let me know. Obviously, I am limited as to
                                    > how many I can give away, so please be honest with yourself and me as to
                                    > whether you would wear it. They go well with a piece of leather
                                    > shoelace, tied with two overhand knots, each about the other end, so
                                    > that the knots can be pulled against one another.
                                    >
                                    > (I know that we macho types may at first balk at wearing a piece of gold
                                    > jewelry, but this tries to be a precise symbol of what we are focussing
                                    > on in this group.)
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > A vortex from the future unto the present, centers of spreading change
                                    > upon a spherical surface, old wealth is mercifully swallowed to become
                                    > the new.
                                    >
                                    > Steve Morningthunder
                                    >
                                    > mthunder@...
                                    > http://greatchange.org
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your message didn't show up on the list? Complaints or compliments?
                                    > Drop me (Tom Robertson) a note at t1r@...
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                  • S Morningthunder
                                    ... I ve got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that inspired me to
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                                      > To: S Morningthunder
                                      > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                                      >
                                      > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                                      > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                                      > the same philosophical weight.

                                      I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                                      20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                                      inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                                      jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                                      worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.

                                      The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".

                                      >
                                      > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                      >
                                      It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                      who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                      $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                      its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                                      You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                                      stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                                      Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.

                                      --
                                      The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                                      with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                                      slay game when the wind is white with winter.

                                      Steve Morningthunder

                                      mthunder@...
                                      http://greatchange.org
                                    • S Morningthunder
                                      ... No, I didn t leave it out. And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost. It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You ve got to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 20, 2002
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                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Ron Patterson [mailto:readyourdarwin@...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:52 AM
                                        > To: energyresources@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: RE: [energyresources] Hydrogen and Solar Energy Question
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Steve Morningthunder wrote:
                                        > >>>I made my effort at
                                        > http://greatchange.org/bb-electricity.html which
                                        > includes a link to "entire energy cost" where the additional
                                        > energy thatit would take is treated.<<<
                                        >
                                        > Steve, loved your math on the cost of converting electricity
                                        > to hydrogen but have you not left out a step, the delivery
                                        > system? Hydrogen, when it is generated is at ambient
                                        > temperature and pressure. In this form it is absolutely useless to us.

                                        No, I didn't leave it out.


                                        "And, this is before taking into consideration the entire energy cost.
                                        It goes back to our dinosaur blood spooner. You've got to build the
                                        additional electricity and hydrogen generation plants, the cars, keep
                                        the roads up, mine the minerals, and build a distribution system for the
                                        hydrogen, plus keep all those people who build it alive and sheltered
                                        before you get to the net eMergy, before you have something that the
                                        rest of society can work with."

                                        There is a link at "entire energy cost" that takes you to a much better
                                        treatment of the theme than I might come up with.

                                        --
                                        A wall of infinite dimension stands before the present course of human
                                        evolution. It is the wise finitude of the Earth and its resources.

                                        Steve Morningthunder

                                        mthunder@...
                                        http://greatchange.org
                                      • Jacob Lund Fisker
                                        ... For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is just NkT ln(V_end/V_start) or nRT ln(V_end/V_start) k is Boltzmann s constant, R is the gas
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                          On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 05:52:09AM -0800, Ron Patterson wrote:

                                          > But I have no idea how much energy this would take or even how
                                          > high you can pressurize hydrogen? I have read that this would

                                          For an isothermal process the energy (barring friction etc.) is
                                          just

                                          NkT ln(V_end/V_start)

                                          or

                                          nRT ln(V_end/V_start)

                                          k is Boltzmann's constant, R is the gas constant. N is the number
                                          of H2 molecules, n is their concentration. V are the volumes.

                                          As the process is isothermal you just divide by T to get the entropy
                                          increase.

                                          Caveats: Industrially one may not have the time to ensure a reversible
                                          process - this will increase entropy generation, but not energy
                                          requirements. However, the lack of a large cold reservoir in turn will
                                          probably require some cooling increasing energy requirements, and entropy
                                          generation for the heat engine which does the cooling.

                                          --
                                          Jacob Lund Fisker
                                          PGP-key:0xF94C6234 at www.keyserver.net
                                          http://quasar.physik.unibas.ch/~fisker/401/oil/oil.html
                                        • Andrew MacKillop
                                          DINOSAURS Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ? Those
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                            DINOSAURS

                                            Does any member of this group have articles, information, views or comments
                                            about DINOSAURS and their relation to Fossil Energy Civilization ?
                                            Those ole Sauriens can hardly be symbols of 'awareness', but how come they
                                            got to be cult image/icons in the space of maybe 15 years? Is this a Dark
                                            Bond between Fossil Energy Citizenry and the geological age that made our
                                            wonderful world possible? Or good marketing by Spielberg & Co?

                                            Please contact me if you have ideas

                                            A McKillop
                                          • Jack Dingler
                                            Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be? Jack Dingler
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                              Would there really be so great a philosophical or symbolic difference
                                              between using crude and refined oil? If so, what would it be?

                                              Jack Dingler

                                              --- In energyresources@y..., "S Morningthunder" <mthunder@g...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: b [mailto:b@...]
                                              > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:04 PM
                                              > > To: S Morningthunder
                                              > > Subject: Re: [energyresources] A Symbol of Awareness
                                              > >
                                              > > Great idea. I wouldn't wear one myself but a
                                              > > bottle of the stuff (crude oil) sitting on my desk may carry
                                              > > the same philosophical weight.
                                              >
                                              > I've got an acrylic paperweight on my desk that contains a drop shaped
                                              > 20 ml of crude oil, which was a promotional item made by PEMEX that
                                              > inspired me to try and do the same, but the effort wound up becoming
                                              > jewelry instead. I couldn't contract a paperweight for under $20, and
                                              > worked toward mastering the technique, but haven't gotten it yet.
                                              >
                                              > The jewelry, though, is more "beared upon the chest before the world".
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > > How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                              > >
                                              > It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                              > who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                              > $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                              > its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.
                                              >
                                              > You might try driving through west texas and buying it directly from a
                                              > stripper owner. That is what I was going to do if I failed in Mexico.
                                              > Or perhaps "Thompson's reference" would provide a lead.
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > The harsh times approach. It is the lack of preparation which fills me
                                              > with concern and anxiety, for we assume that we shall gather wood and
                                              > slay game when the wind is white with winter.
                                              >
                                              > Steve Morningthunder
                                              >
                                              > mthunder@g...
                                              > http://greatchange.org
                                            • b
                                              Hi S, ... SM It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone SM who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                Hi S,

                                                Thursday, November 21, 2002, 12:42:03 AM, you wrote:


                                                >> How does one get their hands on crude oil locally?
                                                >>
                                                SM> It was a real bitch for me. I finally found someone who knew someone
                                                SM> who worked in a Mexican oil refinery, and bought it from them, at some
                                                SM> $1300 per barrel, although I don't have that much. However, at the rate
                                                SM> its going I think my ten gallons will last for some 100,000 years.

                                                See my request to BP educational services posted earlier

                                                b
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