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Re: Permanent Worldwide Rationing was The Well From Hell

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  • john
    Actually, civilization itself is a mere snapshot of the past in the larger picture of human history. Furthermore, civilization is the main cause of human
    Message 1 of 78 , Jun 30, 2010
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      Actually, civilization itself is a mere "snapshot" of the past in the larger picture of human history. Furthermore, civilization is the main cause of human consumption beyond the means of the support of its environment. Cities are the perfect example as they extract far more energy than they are normally be able to support by extracting energy resources further and further outside its domain through allocation, servitude and war.

      It is not only naive but incorrect to reduce every human activity down to the role of genetics. You even go so far as to say that America's genes are more violent than other peoples, totally discounting the social reasons for their violence. All war-like states (including the United States) have a warring culture based on violence, replete with its myths, symbols and legends (movies, tv, video games, etc).

      The argument about human nature being innately violent and animalistic in the absence of government control is also patently wrong. It is the barbaric social structures that we have created in relatively more recent times that perpetuates mass violence. We can thank Hollywood and other forms of indoctrination for the false belief that society turns to cannibalism and all out war without strong central government.

      Certainly there is often chaos, violence, or starvation when societies become diseased and then eventually collapse, but this whole mentality of "run to the hills with your guns and rocket launchers" is comical.

      You know there are many examples, like Cuba or North Korea for instance, where individuals did not resort to eating each other in the absence of ample food or oil. Look at all the starving people in Africa. Individuals have resorted to eating mud pies or bark from tres (as in N Korea) before marauding and killing family members.

      Finally, I think you need to study what anarchy really is before you go about making imprecise statements. The fact of the matter is that human kind has experienced it in at least 95% of its past and in none of that history had we come to the point of world breakdown and killing each other off by the millions. Believe it or not is is actually possible to live in relative harmony with the environment and other people. There are countless tribes and entire peoples that are an example of that.

      -john

      --- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Hanson" <JayHanson@...> wrote:
      >
      > >john
      > >
      > >It is worth repeating what many of us have said or heard many times in
      > >the past: that local communities with ecology and sustainability in
      > >mind is the answer we will actually be forced into.
      >
      > They might have "sustainability in mind" but unless they have the guns to
      > back it up, they will be swept by violent groups from elsewhere.
      >
      > Activists take a snapshot of some idealistic period in the past and assume
      > that if survivors are simply left alone this new "ecological" community can
      > continue indefinitely. There are at least two obvious problems with this
      > view:
      >
      > #1. The over-consume and over-reproduce genes that caused humans to wage war
      > and migrate in the past are still at work. Humans are, by nature,
      > unsustainable. The bias to over-reproduce and over-consume must be
      > suppressed by government or the same drives that caused these people to
      > migrate out of Africa in the first place will repeat. It's self-deception
      > to claim otherwise.
      >
      > #2. Even assuming a strong local leadership was able to prevent
      > over-reproduction and over-consumption, other groups that didn't would
      > attack and take the ecological community's resources:
      >
      > "The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such
      > freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized
      > societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In
      > an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for
      > power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is
      > free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for
      > power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes." [p. 21, Andrew Bard
      > Schmookler, THE PARABLE OF THE TRIBES; SUNY, 1995. ISBN 0-7914-2420-0]
      >
      > A strong government that can protect us from outsiders is ONLY logical way
      > out of our natural overshoot and dieoff cycles.
      >
      > Jay
      >
    • Arthur C.
      You two have no subtlety of mind at all. Say the words out reproduce , and you have only two thoughts of how that can happen. Either pop out the babies faster
      Message 78 of 78 , Jul 8, 2010
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        You two have no subtlety of mind at all. Say the words "out reproduce", and you have only two thoughts of how that can happen. Either pop out the babies faster or kill or physically control the opposition. Even telling you repeatedly that people who are too aggressive, overpopulate, and destroy their carrying capacity, can solve the problem for you with self destruction, and all you have to do is get out of their way, live in more efficient ways in places that are of no interest to them, you don't get it. You are pathetic. Your mind set belongs to the overpopulating, overly aggressive algorithms that are setting up to self destruct.

        Arthur Noll



        --- In energyresources@yahoogroups.com, Ryder <ryder@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Out reproducing" would be a demanding and probably somewhat haphazard process. It might be more effective if one attempted to eliminate the unwanted. Methods might vary from the subtle use of deterrents through to simple violence. It would, however, remain a daunting task.
        >
        > Robert R.
        >
        >
        >
        > On 7 Jul 2010, at 00:54, Jay Hanson wrote:
        >
        > > >Arthur C.
        > > >
        > > >I think you have plenty of intellectual capacity
        > > >to understand this,
        > >
        > > You are correct. I do understand all this. Evolution is simple and elegant.
        > >
        > > >I am in competition with this self destructive behavior
        > > >and am looking to form groups made up of "turncoats"
        > > >of people who understand that this behavior is not
        > > >going to end up doing what it intended. And my aim *is*
        > > >to eventually out reproduce those types.
        > >
        > > You are going to "out reproduce those types"!!
        > >
        > > My goodness, how old are you?
        > >
        > > Jay
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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