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Re: Digest Number 761

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  • rich12545
    I ve found the basic AI in EDEE is good at stuff like moving, attacking and missions like explore and transport. And it is aggressive when dealing with simple
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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      I've found the basic AI in EDEE is good at stuff like moving,
      attacking and missions like explore and transport. And it is
      aggressive when dealing with simple units. One problem you mentioned
      is that a unit won't attack another (a destroyer against a transport)
      and the best I've been able to figure is that it's on a search mission
      and is unable to switch to attack, it keeps searching. I got an idea
      from Mark (forget what it is) that seems to help somewhat and it's in
      the SoloMod script. Also about the AI building a transport on an
      island under attack. The AI builds units from a queue and if the
      transport is next then that's it.

      A couple of things will make the AI better. First, reduce the total
      number of different units. That keeps down the number in the queue
      and will increase the chance of the proper unit being produced. And
      don't put transports in the queue. Tha AI will make them anyway for
      transport missions. Second, only include units that the AI can use
      well, those that don't do more than move, attack, transport etc. Also
      eliminate the drain as it impedes AI production and expansion. The AI
      doesn't seem to handle the drain well. There are some numbers in the
      beginning of the script that can be increased/tweaked to help, they
      can be found in the SoloMod script.

      The AI in EDEE doesn't produce so many land units that it keeps as
      defenders. So if the drain is disabled, it is going to be expanding
      way better. And the game won't become a war of attrition at every
      island.

      Rich

      --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Young"
      <andy.young.2004@...> wrote:
      >
      > The two AIs are totally different. It's like comparing fire ants
      and herbivores.
      >
      > The ED/EDIE AI was designed in 1993 and incorporated everything that
      the designers of the game could do within the limits of the
      specifications on ED. They designed an AI that stockpiles so many
      infantry that its production gets bogged down by drain. The ED AI
      tends to prefer to attack known opponents rather than expand into
      neutral terrritory. The AI also tends to attack with anything and
      everything rather than wait for enough reinforcements.
      >
      > The EDEE AI needs to be able to deal with many kinds of units and
      maybe with units that it has never been programmed for. It may be a
      good generalized AI, but it is not very good at playing ED. I cannot
      explain it's behaviour. It is pacifistic when it should be agressive.
      It passes up attacking a transport. It builds transports on islands
      that are under attack.
      >
      > A good rule of thumb with ED/EDIE is that you need a fully loaded
      transport plus air and cruiser support for every city that you want to
      capture. There will be enough land based retaliation that the city
      where you land will be devestated. A good idea when playing multiple
      AI opponents is to concentrate on one opponent until it is defeated
      before you attack a second one.
      >
      > In EDEE, you don't need to worry much about the enemy recapturing a
      city. Air support should be all you need to take out the defending
      land units. You probably don't even need cruisers.
      >
      > I recently got bored with EDEE and went back to playing against 5 AI
      opponents in EDIE. I got stuck fighting off two locals coming at me
      from opposite sides. When I was done with them, the remaining 3 were
      all bigger and stronger than I was and one had three times as many
      cities. This will be interesting.
      >
      > I would be happy to discuss ways to reduce the stupidity of the EDEE AI.
      >
      > Andy Young a.k.a GeneralError
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Andrew Nuxoll
      > To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:35 AM
      > Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Re: Digest Number 761
      >
      >
      > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
      months
      > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
      your
      > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI
      is far
      > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
      also
      > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
      he's
      > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
      > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.
      >
      > That combined with the all around improvements in EDEE's software
      > interface and playability makes it, in my not so humble but well
      > informed opinion, a far superior play. I will never, ever go back to
      > the old ED.
      >
      > Barry, I suspect you've played EDEE less than half a dozen times and
      > with a jaundiced eye. I want to inform the others on this list
      that I
      > think Barry's opinion is probably a tiny, vocal minority. I
      encourage
      > you take an open minded look at EDEE. You're almost certian to be
      pleased.
      >
      > Someday when I'm not so overwhelmed by my current research I'll
      start up
      > a side project to create a really effective AI for EDEE (something
      else
      > you could never do for ED). I don't think I can ever equal an expert
      > human but I'm confident I can give expert humans a run for their
      money.
      >
      > :AMN:
      >
      > barryem wrote:
      > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@> wrote:
      > >> Barry,
      > >>
      > >> With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the
      origonal
      > >> ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default
      if you
      > >> want to.
      > >
      > > I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that
      > > seems a little silly. Basically that would give me Empire with
      poorer
      > > AI. Hardly an upgrade.
      > >
      > > Barry
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS Multiplayer games Multiplayer games online
      Multiplayer online games
      > Computer video game
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > a.. Visit your group "empire-deluxe" on the web.
      >
      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > empire-deluxe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
    • barryem
      ... months ... your ... far ... also ... he s ... I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven t been playing against the AI s strength. I do know
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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        --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Nuxoll <anuxoll@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
        months
        > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
        your
        > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI is
        far
        > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
        also
        > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
        he's
        > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
        > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.

        I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven't been playing
        against the AI's strength. I do know that with Empire Deluxe with
        myself playing against a single other player and all strengths at
        default I would win about 80% of the games. With EDEE so far I've
        never lost. I've taken to using three or four computer players to
        give me more challange but I've still never lost.

        I still play EDIE most of the time.

        I will say that if i was playing an online game or an email game I
        might prefer EDEE. But I haven't done much of that and the little I
        have done was with EDIE because that's what the other player had.

        I've lost the CD to Empire Deluxe somehow or I'd still be playing
        that. Mark has said that EDIE uses the same AI and, while I'm sure
        Mark believes what he says I think ED did have better AI.

        Barry
      • rich12545
        Barry, when you say that with EDEE you ve never lost, are you referring to the Standard AI right out of the box? Rich
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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          Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
          referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?

          Rich

          --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Nuxoll <anuxoll@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
          > months
          > > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
          > your
          > > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI is
          > far
          > > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
          > also
          > > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
          > he's
          > > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
          > > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.
          >
          > I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven't been playing
          > against the AI's strength. I do know that with Empire Deluxe with
          > myself playing against a single other player and all strengths at
          > default I would win about 80% of the games. With EDEE so far I've
          > never lost. I've taken to using three or four computer players to
          > give me more challange but I've still never lost.
          >
          > I still play EDIE most of the time.
          >
          > I will say that if i was playing an online game or an email game I
          > might prefer EDEE. But I haven't done much of that and the little I
          > have done was with EDIE because that's what the other player had.
          >
          > I've lost the CD to Empire Deluxe somehow or I'd still be playing
          > that. Mark has said that EDIE uses the same AI and, while I'm sure
          > Mark believes what he says I think ED did have better AI.
          >
          > Barry
          >
        • barryem
          ... Yes I am. I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a little better but I haven t played it enough to be sure. The game I was
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2006
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            --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
            > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?

            Yes I am.

            I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
            little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
            was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.

            Barry
          • rich12545
            ... Well, then you re comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good and it s finished. The Standard mod (script + db) in EDEE isn t. Even though you can
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2006
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              --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
              > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
              >
              > Yes I am.
              >
              > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
              > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
              > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
              >
              > Barry
              >
              Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
              and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
              Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
              game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
              AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
              place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
              thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
              the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
              units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
              want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.

              Rich
            • Paul
              I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into is with the fighters -- they won t fly. Make all you want, they just stack up in the city.
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 25, 2006
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                I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into
                is with the fighters -- they won't fly. Make all you want, they just
                stack up in the city. I've tried just about everything I can think of,
                including "take off," to no avail. Anybody else have this problem or
                is it something I haven't thought of yet?

                "Pete"

                --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                > > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
                > >
                > > Yes I am.
                > >
                > > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
                > > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
                > > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
                > >
                > > Barry
                > >
                > Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
                > and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
                > Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
                > game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
                > AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
                > place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
                > thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
                > the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
                > units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
                > want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.
                >
                > Rich
                >
              • rich12545
                I don t know what problem you re having, but the current version of SoloMod has fighters that fly. Feel free to send a save game to the address in the readme.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 27, 2006
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                  I don't know what problem you're having, but the current version of
                  SoloMod has fighters that fly. Feel free to send a save game to the
                  address in the readme. I'll take a look and see if I can find what's
                  wrong.

                  I've been tweaking the script to SM and believe the production
                  problems have been solved pretty much. I still recommend an extra
                  city for all ai players to offset inevitable ai poor decisions. The
                  new and final version of SM is complete. It is only waiting for the
                  upcoming patch to possibly incorporate any new features. I will also
                  convert all my scenarios (280) and maps (215) to EDEE using the
                  SoloMod mod. Everything will be posted in the EDEE mods forum within
                  a few days of the patch being issued.

                  Rich

                  --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <daddyrabbitp@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into
                  > is with the fighters -- they won't fly. Make all you want, they just
                  > stack up in the city. I've tried just about everything I can think of,
                  > including "take off," to no avail. Anybody else have this problem or
                  > is it something I haven't thought of yet?
                  >
                  > "Pete"
                  >
                  > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                  > > > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes I am.
                  > > >
                  > > > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It
                  seems a
                  > > > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The
                  game I
                  > > > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Barry
                  > > >
                  > > Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
                  > > and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
                  > > Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
                  > > game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
                  > > AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
                  > > place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
                  > > thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
                  > > the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
                  > > units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
                  > > want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.
                  > >
                  > > Rich
                  > >
                  >
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