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Re: Digest Number 761

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  • rich12545
    And thank you. I used your city graphics, very nice (credit given). There are currently two mods available that I know of along with some misc files.
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 24, 2006
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      And thank you. I used your city graphics, very nice (credit given).
      There are currently two mods available that I know of along with some
      misc files. Everything is at the EDEE mod forum and the link is on
      the KBS main page.

      SM was designed to keep the simple flavor of Empire and give the best
      AI challenge for solo play. I hope you like it.

      Rich

      --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Ivy <raf-ivy@...> wrote:
      >
      > SoloMod sounds good. Where can I download it? What site has the best
      variety of mods available for EDEE?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > raf-ivy
      >
      > I
      > rich12545 <rich12545@...> wrote:
      > In case anybody is interested in getting EDEE but likes the simplicity
      > of previous editions, I made a mod called SoloMod and it is at the
      > EDEE mod forum. It adds just a few units and changes a few others. I
      > also upgraded about 280 scenarios and over 200 maps to work with
      this mod.
      >
      > Rich
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • barryem
      ... I don t think that s really an upgrade. I think EDEE is a different game, just as Empire II was a different game. It s a good game but it s not at all
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 29, 2006
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        > Hey, I have upgraded to EDEE also.

        I don't think that's really an upgrade. I think EDEE is a different
        game, just as Empire II was a different game. It's a good game but
        it's not at all the same game.

        Barry
      • Randy.R
        Barry, With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the origonal ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default if you want to.
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 29, 2006
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          Barry,

          With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the origonal
          ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default if you
          want to.

          Randy

          --- barryem <barryem@...> wrote:

          > > Hey, I have upgraded to EDEE also.
          >
          > I don't think that's really an upgrade. I think EDEE is a
          > different
          > game, just as Empire II was a different game. It's a good game but
          >
          > it's not at all the same game.
          >
          > Barry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • barryem
          ... I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that seems a little silly. Basically that would give me Empire with poorer AI. Hardly an
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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            --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...> wrote:
            >
            > Barry,
            >
            > With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the origonal
            > ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default if you
            > want to.

            I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that
            seems a little silly. Basically that would give me Empire with poorer
            AI. Hardly an upgrade.

            Barry
          • Andrew Nuxoll
            Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12 months and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with your opinion. A
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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              Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12 months
              and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with your
              opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI is far
              from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've also
              played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that he's
              made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
              mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.

              That combined with the all around improvements in EDEE's software
              interface and playability makes it, in my not so humble but well
              informed opinion, a far superior play. I will never, ever go back to
              the old ED.

              Barry, I suspect you've played EDEE less than half a dozen times and
              with a jaundiced eye. I want to inform the others on this list that I
              think Barry's opinion is probably a tiny, vocal minority. I encourage
              you take an open minded look at EDEE. You're almost certian to be pleased.

              Someday when I'm not so overwhelmed by my current research I'll start up
              a side project to create a really effective AI for EDEE (something else
              you could never do for ED). I don't think I can ever equal an expert
              human but I'm confident I can give expert humans a run for their money.

              :AMN:

              barryem wrote:
              > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...> wrote:
              >> Barry,
              >>
              >> With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the origonal
              >> ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default if you
              >> want to.
              >
              > I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that
              > seems a little silly. Basically that would give me Empire with poorer
              > AI. Hardly an upgrade.
              >
              > Barry
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Andy Young
              The two AIs are totally different. It s like comparing fire ants and herbivores. The ED/EDIE AI was designed in 1993 and incorporated everything that the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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                The two AIs are totally different.  It's like comparing fire ants and herbivores.
                 
                The ED/EDIE AI was designed in 1993 and incorporated everything that the designers of the game could do within the limits of the specifications on ED.  They designed an AI that stockpiles so many infantry that its production gets  bogged down by drain.  The ED AI tends to prefer to attack known opponents rather than expand into neutral terrritory.  The AI also tends to attack with anything and everything rather than wait for enough reinforcements. 
                 
                The EDEE AI needs to be able to deal with many kinds of units and maybe with units that it has never been programmed for.  It may be a good generalized AI, but it is not very good at playing ED.  I cannot explain it's behaviour.  It is pacifistic when it should be agressive.  It passes up attacking a transport.  It builds transports on islands that are under attack.  
                 
                A good rule of thumb with ED/EDIE is that you need a fully loaded transport plus air and cruiser support for every city that you want to capture.  There will be enough land based retaliation that the city where you land will be devestated.  A good idea when playing multiple AI opponents is to concentrate on one opponent until it is defeated before you attack a second one.
                 
                In EDEE, you don't need to worry much about the enemy recapturing a city.   Air support should be all you need to take out the defending land units.  You probably don't even need cruisers. 
                 
                I recently got bored with EDEE and went back to playing against 5 AI opponents in EDIE.  I got stuck fighting off two locals coming at me from opposite sides.  When I was done with them, the remaining 3 were all bigger and stronger than I was and one had three times as many cities.  This will be interesting.
                 
                I would be happy to discuss ways to reduce the stupidity of the EDEE AI.
                 
                Andy Young  a.k.a GeneralError
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:35 AM
                Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Re: Digest Number 761

                Gee.  Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12 months
                and who has played both games extensively.  I firmly disagree with your
                opinion.  A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished.  The new AI is far
                from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED.  I've also
                played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that he's
                made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
                mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.

                That combined with the all around improvements in EDEE's software
                interface and playability makes it, in my not so humble but well
                informed opinion, a far superior play.  I will never, ever go back to
                the old ED.

                Barry, I suspect you've played EDEE less than half a dozen times and
                with a jaundiced eye.  I want to inform the others on this list that I
                think Barry's opinion is probably a tiny, vocal minority.  I encourage
                you take an open minded look at EDEE.  You're almost certian to be pleased.

                Someday when I'm not so overwhelmed by my current research I'll start up
                a side project to create a really effective AI for EDEE (something else
                you could never do for ED).  I don't think I can ever equal an expert
                human but I'm confident I can give expert humans a run for their money.

                :AMN:

                barryem wrote:
                > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@...> wrote:
                >> Barry,
                >>
                >> With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the origonal
                >> ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default if you
                >> want to.
                >
                > I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that
                > seems a little silly.  Basically that would give me Empire with poorer
                > AI.  Hardly an upgrade.
                >
                > Barry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                >
                >
                >
              • rich12545
                I ve found the basic AI in EDEE is good at stuff like moving, attacking and missions like explore and transport. And it is aggressive when dealing with simple
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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                  I've found the basic AI in EDEE is good at stuff like moving,
                  attacking and missions like explore and transport. And it is
                  aggressive when dealing with simple units. One problem you mentioned
                  is that a unit won't attack another (a destroyer against a transport)
                  and the best I've been able to figure is that it's on a search mission
                  and is unable to switch to attack, it keeps searching. I got an idea
                  from Mark (forget what it is) that seems to help somewhat and it's in
                  the SoloMod script. Also about the AI building a transport on an
                  island under attack. The AI builds units from a queue and if the
                  transport is next then that's it.

                  A couple of things will make the AI better. First, reduce the total
                  number of different units. That keeps down the number in the queue
                  and will increase the chance of the proper unit being produced. And
                  don't put transports in the queue. Tha AI will make them anyway for
                  transport missions. Second, only include units that the AI can use
                  well, those that don't do more than move, attack, transport etc. Also
                  eliminate the drain as it impedes AI production and expansion. The AI
                  doesn't seem to handle the drain well. There are some numbers in the
                  beginning of the script that can be increased/tweaked to help, they
                  can be found in the SoloMod script.

                  The AI in EDEE doesn't produce so many land units that it keeps as
                  defenders. So if the drain is disabled, it is going to be expanding
                  way better. And the game won't become a war of attrition at every
                  island.

                  Rich

                  --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Young"
                  <andy.young.2004@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The two AIs are totally different. It's like comparing fire ants
                  and herbivores.
                  >
                  > The ED/EDIE AI was designed in 1993 and incorporated everything that
                  the designers of the game could do within the limits of the
                  specifications on ED. They designed an AI that stockpiles so many
                  infantry that its production gets bogged down by drain. The ED AI
                  tends to prefer to attack known opponents rather than expand into
                  neutral terrritory. The AI also tends to attack with anything and
                  everything rather than wait for enough reinforcements.
                  >
                  > The EDEE AI needs to be able to deal with many kinds of units and
                  maybe with units that it has never been programmed for. It may be a
                  good generalized AI, but it is not very good at playing ED. I cannot
                  explain it's behaviour. It is pacifistic when it should be agressive.
                  It passes up attacking a transport. It builds transports on islands
                  that are under attack.
                  >
                  > A good rule of thumb with ED/EDIE is that you need a fully loaded
                  transport plus air and cruiser support for every city that you want to
                  capture. There will be enough land based retaliation that the city
                  where you land will be devestated. A good idea when playing multiple
                  AI opponents is to concentrate on one opponent until it is defeated
                  before you attack a second one.
                  >
                  > In EDEE, you don't need to worry much about the enemy recapturing a
                  city. Air support should be all you need to take out the defending
                  land units. You probably don't even need cruisers.
                  >
                  > I recently got bored with EDEE and went back to playing against 5 AI
                  opponents in EDIE. I got stuck fighting off two locals coming at me
                  from opposite sides. When I was done with them, the remaining 3 were
                  all bigger and stronger than I was and one had three times as many
                  cities. This will be interesting.
                  >
                  > I would be happy to discuss ways to reduce the stupidity of the EDEE AI.
                  >
                  > Andy Young a.k.a GeneralError
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Andrew Nuxoll
                  > To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:35 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Re: Digest Number 761
                  >
                  >
                  > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
                  months
                  > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
                  your
                  > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI
                  is far
                  > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
                  also
                  > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
                  he's
                  > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
                  > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.
                  >
                  > That combined with the all around improvements in EDEE's software
                  > interface and playability makes it, in my not so humble but well
                  > informed opinion, a far superior play. I will never, ever go back to
                  > the old ED.
                  >
                  > Barry, I suspect you've played EDEE less than half a dozen times and
                  > with a jaundiced eye. I want to inform the others on this list
                  that I
                  > think Barry's opinion is probably a tiny, vocal minority. I
                  encourage
                  > you take an open minded look at EDEE. You're almost certian to be
                  pleased.
                  >
                  > Someday when I'm not so overwhelmed by my current research I'll
                  start up
                  > a side project to create a really effective AI for EDEE (something
                  else
                  > you could never do for ED). I don't think I can ever equal an expert
                  > human but I'm confident I can give expert humans a run for their
                  money.
                  >
                  > :AMN:
                  >
                  > barryem wrote:
                  > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Randy.R" <steyrhahn@> wrote:
                  > >> Barry,
                  > >>
                  > >> With EDEE, one can choose unit types to only be those in the
                  origonal
                  > >> ED at game create time. In fact you can make that your default
                  if you
                  > >> want to.
                  > >
                  > > I realize that but since I already have Empire Deluxe and IDIE that
                  > > seems a little silly. Basically that would give me Empire with
                  poorer
                  > > AI. Hardly an upgrade.
                  > >
                  > > Barry
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS Multiplayer games Multiplayer games online
                  Multiplayer online games
                  > Computer video game
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                • barryem
                  ... months ... your ... far ... also ... he s ... I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven t been playing against the AI s strength. I do know
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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                    --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Nuxoll <anuxoll@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
                    months
                    > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
                    your
                    > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI is
                    far
                    > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
                    also
                    > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
                    he's
                    > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
                    > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.

                    I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven't been playing
                    against the AI's strength. I do know that with Empire Deluxe with
                    myself playing against a single other player and all strengths at
                    default I would win about 80% of the games. With EDEE so far I've
                    never lost. I've taken to using three or four computer players to
                    give me more challange but I've still never lost.

                    I still play EDIE most of the time.

                    I will say that if i was playing an online game or an email game I
                    might prefer EDEE. But I haven't done much of that and the little I
                    have done was with EDIE because that's what the other player had.

                    I've lost the CD to Empire Deluxe somehow or I'd still be playing
                    that. Mark has said that EDIE uses the same AI and, while I'm sure
                    Mark believes what he says I think ED did have better AI.

                    Barry
                  • rich12545
                    Barry, when you say that with EDEE you ve never lost, are you referring to the Standard AI right out of the box? Rich
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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                      Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                      referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?

                      Rich

                      --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Nuxoll <anuxoll@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Gee. Speaking as someone who will have a Ph.D. in AI in about 12
                      > months
                      > > and who has played both games extensively. I firmly disagree with
                      > your
                      > > opinion. A lot of bugs in the old AI have vanished. The new AI is
                      > far
                      > > from competent but it certainly plays a better game than ED. I've
                      > also
                      > > played Rich's SoloMod a few times and my early impression is that
                      > he's
                      > > made some very notable improvements in the AI though their impact is
                      > > mostly felt only if you play a game on a large map.
                      >
                      > I like short, fast games on small maps so maybe I haven't been playing
                      > against the AI's strength. I do know that with Empire Deluxe with
                      > myself playing against a single other player and all strengths at
                      > default I would win about 80% of the games. With EDEE so far I've
                      > never lost. I've taken to using three or four computer players to
                      > give me more challange but I've still never lost.
                      >
                      > I still play EDIE most of the time.
                      >
                      > I will say that if i was playing an online game or an email game I
                      > might prefer EDEE. But I haven't done much of that and the little I
                      > have done was with EDIE because that's what the other player had.
                      >
                      > I've lost the CD to Empire Deluxe somehow or I'd still be playing
                      > that. Mark has said that EDIE uses the same AI and, while I'm sure
                      > Mark believes what he says I think ED did have better AI.
                      >
                      > Barry
                      >
                    • barryem
                      ... Yes I am. I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a little better but I haven t played it enough to be sure. The game I was
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 2, 2006
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                        --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                        > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?

                        Yes I am.

                        I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
                        little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
                        was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.

                        Barry
                      • rich12545
                        ... Well, then you re comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good and it s finished. The Standard mod (script + db) in EDEE isn t. Even though you can
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 2, 2006
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                          --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                          > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
                          >
                          > Yes I am.
                          >
                          > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
                          > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
                          > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
                          >
                          > Barry
                          >
                          Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
                          and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
                          Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
                          game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
                          AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
                          place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
                          thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
                          the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
                          units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
                          want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.

                          Rich
                        • Paul
                          I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into is with the fighters -- they won t fly. Make all you want, they just stack up in the city.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 25, 2006
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                            I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into
                            is with the fighters -- they won't fly. Make all you want, they just
                            stack up in the city. I've tried just about everything I can think of,
                            including "take off," to no avail. Anybody else have this problem or
                            is it something I haven't thought of yet?

                            "Pete"

                            --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                            > > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
                            > >
                            > > Yes I am.
                            > >
                            > > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It seems a
                            > > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The game I
                            > > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
                            > >
                            > > Barry
                            > >
                            > Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
                            > and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
                            > Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
                            > game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
                            > AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
                            > place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
                            > thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
                            > the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
                            > units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
                            > want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.
                            >
                            > Rich
                            >
                          • rich12545
                            I don t know what problem you re having, but the current version of SoloMod has fighters that fly. Feel free to send a save game to the address in the readme.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 27, 2006
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                              I don't know what problem you're having, but the current version of
                              SoloMod has fighters that fly. Feel free to send a save game to the
                              address in the readme. I'll take a look and see if I can find what's
                              wrong.

                              I've been tweaking the script to SM and believe the production
                              problems have been solved pretty much. I still recommend an extra
                              city for all ai players to offset inevitable ai poor decisions. The
                              new and final version of SM is complete. It is only waiting for the
                              upcoming patch to possibly incorporate any new features. I will also
                              convert all my scenarios (280) and maps (215) to EDEE using the
                              SoloMod mod. Everything will be posted in the EDEE mods forum within
                              a few days of the patch being issued.

                              Rich

                              --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <daddyrabbitp@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I downloaded and installed Solo Mod and the first problem I ran into
                              > is with the fighters -- they won't fly. Make all you want, they just
                              > stack up in the city. I've tried just about everything I can think of,
                              > including "take off," to no avail. Anybody else have this problem or
                              > is it something I haven't thought of yet?
                              >
                              > "Pete"
                              >
                              > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "barryem" <barryem@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "rich12545" <rich12545@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Barry, when you say that with EDEE you've never lost, are you
                              > > > > referring to the Standard AI right out of the box?
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes I am.
                              > > >
                              > > > I did download the Solo mod and try it out the other day. It
                              seems a
                              > > > little better but I haven't played it enough to be sure. The
                              game I
                              > > > was playing got interrupted and I haven't gotten back to it.
                              > > >
                              > > > Barry
                              > > >
                              > > Well, then you're comparing apples to oranges. The EDIE AI is good
                              > > and it's finished. The Standard "mod" (script + db) in EDEE isn't.
                              > > Even though you can play the Standard, it won't give you a very good
                              > > game. The script has problems and the db has lots of units that the
                              > > AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use intelligently. I look at it as a
                              > > place to start to build a better script/db. Imo SoloMod is the only
                              > > thing that will give you a good game against the computer. Other than
                              > > the Standard the only other mod is Ultra and that has way too many
                              > > units that the AI.dll hasn't been programmed to use well. Btw, if you
                              > > want to try SM again, I just put up a new one.
                              > >
                              > > Rich
                              > >
                              >
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