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Re: CHE map #6, Large Map

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  • munson_de
    It was going to be map 6 because the design for map 6 was hopeless. After ignoring for a couple months I made map 6 work.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 14, 2004
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      It was going to be map 6 because the design for map 6 was hopeless.
      After ignoring for a couple months I made map 6 work.

      --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Steve (Gryphin)"
      <gryphin_4x_gamer@y...> wrote:
      >
      > BTW: I was reminded I am working on Map 7.
      >
    • munson_de
      Would not that be more appropriate for the space theme?
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 14, 2004
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        Would not that be more appropriate for the space theme?

        --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, Matthias <matthias_mls@y...>
        wrote:


        > Alpha Lyrae, Pi Mensae, Zeta Reticuli ...
      • Andy Young
        Munson_de, Thank you for the great map. The first time I tried it I ended up on a one city island. That presented no problem for me, but the AI does not
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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          Munson_de,
          Thank you for the great map. The first time I tried it I ended up on
          a one city island. That presented no problem for me, but the AI does
          not handle it well. I stopped playing at turn 150 and peeked at the
          AI players. They were still at one city.

          I let my AI take over and it had no trouble rolling over the rest.

          I highly recomment restarting the game if you end up on a one city
          island.

          --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "munson_de" <munson_de@y...>
          wrote:
          > A bit different theme for this map. On this one, you are not
          directly
          > challenged for the nearest large continent. All yours. You get your
          > own continent.... Until the other AI's start landing troops from
          all
          > directions.
          >
          > Note: the other map #6 posted will become map #7 when the naming of
          > the cities is complete.
          ...
          > Note: occasionally the players are put on other small islands than
          > did not designed for. This occurs in about one game in ten. If this
          > happens do not panic: is not a bad game.
          >
        • munson_de
          Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city / island; restart. Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a beacon for
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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            Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city /
            island; restart.

            Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a
            beacon for the AI (saying "expand this way"). The AI sees the island,
            notes that it is a low value city compared to the nearby continent.
            It will take it AFTER securing a landing on the continent. Later, it
            will see the island beyond so it next expands there. It allows the AI
            to expand in the direction it must go. It really needs to be there.

            If the single city ain't there the AI does not find the next island
            quickly enough. These small islands are the key to victory. While the
            continent allows you to survive, decisive victory comes from the
            other path. If I get rid of the single city islands & move the small
            islands closer to the starting island, the AI sometimes never expand
            to the main continent which is a guarantied loser. I can't get rid of
            it.

            When it works, the AI first expands to the large continent and then
            to his smaller island; in that order. If the program starts everyone
            on the correct island it works every time. By the time the AI reaches
            the far end of the continent it also is working on conquest from the
            smaller islands can make it difficult to hold the larger island.
            Smaller islands are spaced close enough to lead the AI's toward the
            next continent. Other islands make it easy to attack near by
            continents (or to have your continent attached).

            I have seen starting on the small islands designed to make it easy to
            conquer the continents. These are islands with five cities designed
            to help harass nearby continents. I have seen games where every one
            starts there (it makes for a intense game). I could beef up the # of
            cities on these islands but it would make it too easy to take the
            continent that way. (I try to design for passionate, intense games,
            not easy games ;-) ).

            If a AI starts on a single city island, odds are (~80%) that the
            computer will not get off the rock for hundreds of turns. Usually, if
            I give the computer a "perfect island" to start on, it cooperates.

            Sorry guys. Hopefully, with EDEE I can define possible or potential
            starting locations. Until then, the best I can do is to design (&
            limit the # of) places the computer thinks are perfect places to
            start you at. Again, while I do not want to design scenario, I would
            like to set you up for a most excellent game while retaining some
            randomness with the starting location.

            Anyone have any ideas?
          • Matthias
            ... Why not put two low-value cities on the pulling islands instead of just one? The game engine wants to use islands with at least two islands, but not too
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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              munson_de wrote:

              > Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city /
              > island; restart.
              >
              > Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a
              > beacon for the AI (saying "expand this way"). The AI sees the island,
              > notes that it is a low value city compared to the nearby continent.
              > It will take it AFTER securing a landing on the continent. Later, it
              > will see the island beyond so it next expands there. It allows the AI
              > to expand in the direction it must go. It really needs to be there.
              >
              > If the single city ain't there the AI does not find the next island
              > quickly enough. These small islands are the key to victory. While the
              > continent allows you to survive, decisive victory comes from the
              > other path. If I get rid of the single city islands & move the small
              > islands closer to the starting island, the AI sometimes never expand
              > to the main continent which is a guarantied loser. I can't get rid of
              > it.
              > ....
              > Anyone have any ideas?

              Why not put two low-value cities on the "pulling" islands instead of
              just one? The game engine wants to use islands with at least two
              islands, but not too many, as starting positions. I'll bet the AI was
              designed with this assumption in mind. With only one city to work with,
              it might be going into "alamo mode" and build army units endlessly until
              it feels secure enough to [re]start production on other units.
            • Mark Kinkead @ Killer Bee Software
              Maybe it should set it up as a scenario with six players... --Mark ... From: Matthias To: empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:18
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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                Maybe it should set it up as a scenario with six players...
                 
                --Mark
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Matthias
                Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:18 PM
                Subject: Re: [empire-deluxe] Re: CHE map #6, Rats

                munson_de wrote:

                > Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city /
                > island; restart.
                >
                > Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a
                > beacon for the AI (saying "expand this way"). The AI sees the island,
                > notes that it is a low value city compared to the nearby continent.
                > It will take it AFTER securing a landing on the continent. Later, it
                > will see the island beyond so it next expands there. It allows the AI
                > to expand in the direction it must go. It really needs to be there.
                >
                > If the single city ain't there the AI does not find the next island
                > quickly enough. These small islands are the key to victory. While the
                > continent allows you to survive, decisive victory comes from the
                > other path. If I get rid of the single city islands & move the small
                > islands closer to the starting island, the AI sometimes never expand
                > to the main continent which is a guarantied loser. I can't get rid of
                > it.
                > ....
                > Anyone have any ideas?

                Why not put two low-value cities on the "pulling" islands instead of
                just one? The game engine wants to use islands with at least two
                islands, but not too many, as starting positions. I'll bet the AI was
                designed with this assumption in mind. With only one city to work with,
                it might be going into "alamo mode" and build army units endlessly until
                it feels secure enough to [re]start production on other units.





                Yahoo! Groups Links

              • Andy Young
                Munson_de, I am amazed at the play value that you have designed into this map. You have been able to get the AI players to behave in a reasonable manner.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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                  Munson_de,
                  I am amazed at the play value that you have designed into this map.  You have been able to get the AI players to behave in a reasonable manner.  They expand about 60% as fast as I do, but with 5 of them, this could be a challenge.  I'll need to make friends with an AI, but that depends on the AI having a choice of enemies. 
                   
                  Just add a warning about starting in a single city island and you have a good map.
                   
                  Thanks,
                  - GeneralError
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: munson_de
                  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:54 PM
                  Subject: [empire-deluxe] Re: CHE map #6, Rats

                  Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city /
                  island; restart.

                  Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a
                  beacon for the AI (saying "expand this way"). The AI sees the island,
                  notes that it is a low value city compared to the nearby continent.
                  It will take it AFTER securing a landing on the continent. Later, it
                  will see the island beyond so it next expands there. It allows the AI
                  to expand in the direction it must go. It really needs to be there.

                  If the single city ain't there the AI does not find the next island
                  quickly enough. These small islands are the key to victory. While the
                  continent allows you to survive, decisive victory comes from the
                  other path. If I get rid of the single city islands & move the small
                  islands closer to the starting island, the AI sometimes never expand
                  to the main continent which is a guarantied loser. I can't get rid of
                  it.

                  When it works, the AI first expands to the large continent and then
                  to his smaller island; in that order. If the program starts everyone
                  on the correct island it works every time. By the time the AI reaches
                  the far end of the continent it also is working on conquest from the
                  smaller islands can make it difficult to hold the larger island.
                  Smaller islands are spaced close enough to lead the AI's toward the
                  next continent. Other islands make it easy to attack near by
                  continents (or to have your continent attached).

                  I have seen starting on the small islands designed to make it easy to
                  conquer the continents. These are islands with five cities designed
                  to help harass nearby continents. I have seen games where every one
                  starts there (it makes for a intense game). I could beef up the # of
                  cities on these islands but it would make it too easy to take the
                  continent that way. (I try to design for passionate, intense games,
                  not easy games  ;-)   ).

                  If a AI starts on a single city island, odds are (~80%) that the
                  computer will not get off the rock for hundreds of turns. Usually, if
                  I give the computer a "perfect island" to start on, it cooperates.

                  Sorry guys. Hopefully, with EDEE I can define possible or potential
                  starting locations. Until then, the best I can do is to design (&
                  limit the # of) places the computer thinks are perfect places to
                  start you at. Again, while I do not want to design scenario, I would
                  like to set you up for a most excellent game while retaining some
                  randomness with the starting location.

                  Anyone have any ideas?

                • munson_de
                  Matthias, If I put two cities on the pulling islands the computer will be more inclined to have someone start there. The priority for where the AI s go must
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 15, 2004
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                    Matthias, If I put two cities on the 'pulling' islands the computer
                    will be more inclined to have someone start there. The priority for
                    where the AI's go must first should the continent which means it
                    needs to be the closest. In the past I have put just a single dot of
                    dirt (no cities) in the direction the computer should explore but for
                    this map I am trying to prioritize the computer to two very specific
                    things.

                    Mark, I get a kick out of not knowing where I will start. Play-
                    testing, some times I do not know where I am or should go (and I drew
                    the map). Designed right, I will have one of six starting places
                    (like the prior CHE maps). Something is wrong: in the early versions
                    of this map (the final is the 26th revision or map 6, version
                    "w"
                    revision "d") it worked before without problems. I am going
                    to go
                    over the changes and see what went wrong. Keep in mind that I
                    remember playing the CHE maps over a decade. Any map I put out should
                    provide exceptional trouble-free play for as long.

                    Andy, Thanks. You may be surprised to learn that there are things
                    designed on this map to slow some of the AI's down! (Low value
                    cities
                    in the path, choke points for armor / armies / naval forces). I
                    can't
                    have the guy with the shortest direct path winning all the time.


                    Normally, if there is a perfect starting place(s) the computer will
                    always start you there every time without fail. During the last few
                    versions of this map, the program has decided that there are other
                    places. I don't know exactly what I did but it will be fixed.
                  • Steve (Gryphin)
                    How does the program select starting locations? Thanks ... island, ... it ... AI ... the ... small ... expand ... of ... everyone ... reaches ... the ... to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 16, 2004
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                      How does the program select starting locations?
                      Thanks

                      --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "munson_de" <munson_de@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Rats. Yes. If you do find yourself starting on a single city /
                      > island; restart.
                      >
                      > Here is the design problem: The single city islands are used as a
                      > beacon for the AI (saying "expand this way"). The AI sees the
                      island,
                      > notes that it is a low value city compared to the nearby continent.
                      > It will take it AFTER securing a landing on the continent. Later,
                      it
                      > will see the island beyond so it next expands there. It allows the
                      AI
                      > to expand in the direction it must go. It really needs to be there.
                      >
                      > If the single city ain't there the AI does not find the next island
                      > quickly enough. These small islands are the key to victory. While
                      the
                      > continent allows you to survive, decisive victory comes from the
                      > other path. If I get rid of the single city islands & move the
                      small
                      > islands closer to the starting island, the AI sometimes never
                      expand
                      > to the main continent which is a guarantied loser. I can't get rid
                      of
                      > it.
                      >
                      > When it works, the AI first expands to the large continent and then
                      > to his smaller island; in that order. If the program starts
                      everyone
                      > on the correct island it works every time. By the time the AI
                      reaches
                      > the far end of the continent it also is working on conquest from
                      the
                      > smaller islands can make it difficult to hold the larger island.
                      > Smaller islands are spaced close enough to lead the AI's toward the
                      > next continent. Other islands make it easy to attack near by
                      > continents (or to have your continent attached).
                      >
                      > I have seen starting on the small islands designed to make it easy
                      to
                      > conquer the continents. These are islands with five cities designed
                      > to help harass nearby continents. I have seen games where every one
                      > starts there (it makes for a intense game). I could beef up the #
                      of
                      > cities on these islands but it would make it too easy to take the
                      > continent that way. (I try to design for passionate, intense games,
                      > not easy games ;-) ).
                      >
                      > If a AI starts on a single city island, odds are (~80%) that the
                      > computer will not get off the rock for hundreds of turns. Usually,
                      if
                      > I give the computer a "perfect island" to start on, it cooperates.
                      >
                      > Sorry guys. Hopefully, with EDEE I can define possible or potential
                      > starting locations. Until then, the best I can do is to design (&
                      > limit the # of) places the computer thinks are perfect places to
                      > start you at. Again, while I do not want to design scenario, I
                      would
                      > like to set you up for a most excellent game while retaining some
                      > randomness with the starting location.
                      >
                      > Anyone have any ideas?
                    • munson_de
                      From playing with it, it looks for the perfect place to start. IT thinks the perfect place is an island with two cities. It will go for a bit more or less. It
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 17, 2004
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                        From playing with it, it looks for the perfect place to start. IT
                        thinks the perfect place is an island with two cities. It will go for
                        a bit more or less. It likes to start placing the opponents equal
                        distance away from one another. I think that is one of the reasons
                        for selecting the single-city-islands. It seems when it does, mostly
                        every one starts on these places.

                        I don't know the exact rules and I wish I did. Mark?

                        --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Steve (Gryphin)"
                        <gryphin_4x_gamer@y...> wrote:
                        > How does the program select starting locations?
                        > Thanks
                        >
                      • Mark Kinkead @ Killer Bee Software
                        I d have to review it, I don t think I have ever looked at this..general rule in rebuilding software is not to touch a piece that is working..you know, if it
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 17, 2004
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                          I'd have to review it, I don't think I have ever looked at this..general rule in rebuilding software is not to touch a piece that is working..you know, "if it ain't broke...", so I never fully looked into that section. There was plenty that was 'broke'. ;>
                           
                          I do know from experience with the world building and such that Baldwin did basically opt for the small island scenarios, so I would say it would tend to look for the largest set of islands with the same number cities. This set must have at least the same number of players members. If enough members of this set cannot be found, then try other things. I do not believe at this point in the game it adds cities on the fly - it makes do with what it has.
                           
                           
                          However, this logic will be re-written for EDEE, and I would be interested on what you guys thought were the criteria....
                           
                           
                          --Mark
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: munson_de
                          Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:17 AM
                          Subject: [empire-deluxe] Re: CHE map #6, Rats

                          >From playing with it, it looks for the perfect place to start. IT
                          thinks the perfect place is an island with two cities. It will go for
                          a bit more or less. It likes to start placing the opponents equal
                          distance away from one another. I think that is one of the reasons
                          for selecting the single-city-islands. It seems when it does, mostly
                          every one starts on these places.

                          I don't know the exact rules and I wish I did. Mark?

                          --- In empire-deluxe@yahoogroups.com, "Steve (Gryphin)"
                          <gryphin_4x_gamer@y...> wrote:
                          > How does the program select starting locations?
                          > Thanks
                          >



                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                        • Matthias
                          ... I d like to suggest that a flag be added to the city unit class during map creation which if set means the city is a valid random starting position. When
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 17, 2004
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                            Mark Kinkead @ Killer Bee Software wrote:

                            > I'd have to review it, I don't think I have ever looked at
                            > this..general rule in rebuilding software is not to touch a piece that
                            > is working..you know, "if it ain't broke...", so I never fully looked
                            > into that section. There was plenty that was 'broke'. ;>
                            >
                            > I do know from experience with the world building and such that
                            > Baldwin did basically opt for the small island scenarios, so I would
                            > say it would tend to look for the largest set of islands with the same
                            > number cities. This set must have at least the same number of players
                            > members. If enough members of this set cannot be found, then try other
                            > things. I do not believe at this point in the game it adds cities on
                            > the fly - it makes do with what it has.
                            >
                            >
                            > However, this logic will be re-written for EDEE, and I would be
                            > interested on what you guys thought were the criteria....
                            >
                            >
                            > --Mark
                            >

                            I'd like to suggest that a flag be added to the city unit class during
                            map creation which if set means the city is a valid random starting
                            position.

                            When building or generating a map, the mapmaker should be able to choose
                            whether the default value for this flag is true or false.

                            Alternatively or additionally, the engine could be given specific
                            criteria for setting or clearing this flag; for example, using the same
                            rules that EDIE has for assigning starting positions when a game is
                            started, or a minimum natural production efficiency (a city with 1% PE
                            would most likely not be intended by the author as a normal
                            unit-producing city).
                          • Andrew Platfoot
                            Hi IMHO if you start at turn 1 at war with as yet undiscovered opponents, you would probably like at least an option of starting with equal opportunity. This
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 17, 2004
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                              Hi

                              IMHO if you start at turn 1 at war with as yet
                              undiscovered opponents, you would probably like at
                              least an option of starting with equal opportunity.

                              This is probably more important in the future case
                              where the AI is a good opponent.

                              Of course if you allow for alliances or the need for
                              an event to trigger a war condition you have the
                              interesting prospect of starting with a disadvantage
                              that you must overcome through careful building and
                              exploration strategies. Some the ideas in the
                              Civilisation series such as shared maps, technology
                              and alliances against a common enemy are good
                              examples.

                              Cheers

                              A

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