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Re: Carl Rogers on certification

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  • Conal Elliott
    Hi Niklas, I like your questions & thoughts on benefits & risks of labels. I m responding on both nvc-evolves and emergence-of-nvc, because I see such a
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 22, 2008
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      Hi Niklas,

      I like your questions & thoughts on benefits & risks of labels.  I'm responding on both nvc-evolves and emergence-of-nvc, because I see such a strong connection to my intentions for both group.

      In addition to the risks you mention, one problem I have with these efficient 'summaries' is that they tend to omit half of a relationship.  For instance:

      So the merit of the label "certified trainer" would be in my eyes that one quickly summarizes the relationship that this person has to the organization

      In this example, half of the relationship is missing, namely which organization is doing the approving or disapproving.  For instance, I am a "certified NVC trainer", though CNVC and CNVC-compliant folks may disagree with that statement and be very uncomfortable with my expressing it.  The difference in our meanings lies in what is not said, namely who is doing the certifying.  In my case, I do the certifying.

      There are many examples of these "Invisible Authority" labels,.  For instance:
      • "That was a lousy movie"
      • "Your behavior is inappropriate"
      • "Your hair is too long"
      • "I'm an NVC trainer" (meaning certified, meaning certified by CNVC)
      One reason to omit most of the meaning (identifying the evaluator, let alone met&unmet needs) in these statements is that they carry more of a coercive punch when stated as absolutes.  One of Marshall's techniques for clarity and personal power is to unmask the implicit evaluators.  For example:
      • "You didn't like the movie?"
      • "You would have liked different behavior?"
      • "You're more comfortable seeing boys with short hair?"
      • "Some organization is confident that you're teaching the way they want you to?"
      Not so much punch there.

      Related thoughts at http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/tag/labels/ .

      Take care,  - Conal


      On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Niklas Wilkens <Vortik@...> wrote:

      Hey (I),

      thanks a lot for Rogers' article. I love his style in writing, his respect for other positions and clarity in bringing forth his own argument. And I believe he makes an important point in saying that certification is usually not helping the purpose it is supposed to help, but has rather some great disadvantages.

      The actual core question is for me, what to do with labels. They allow at the same time a quicker and a riskier communication. If we have a structure, an organization, which provides ressources to a group of people, few people are organizing a lot of stuff for many. So in order to make that doable, i.e. not overstrain their capacities and limits like attention and time, certain parts of the business are summarized in labels. For example there are the people who do research, who do funding, who decide upon the strategies of distribution, of public relations etc. and thus there are researchers, funders, deciders and communicators. The problems with labels only begin if one mistakes them for reality, if one thinks the label IS the person and all his or her possiblities. So the merit of the label "certified trainer" would be in my eyes that one quickly summarizes the relationship that this person has to the organization - what contribution he or she makes and what ressources he or she receives. The problem is of course, that every summary is abstract and therefore prone to be misunderstood. And once misunderstood the summary closes possibilities rather then providing or opening them. Even further, once it is forgotten what need the use of labels itself was supposed to meet, one might come to the conclusion that there is a "need to have labels" and that would be a dead end.

      Therefore I suggest to come up with different strategies which serve both the purpose of helping the organization being efficient in providing the ressources it is set up to provide, and at the same time being open to the potential every human being has, in making a contribution to the cause.

      When people in the organization are trying to protect themselves from being overwhelmed by more work than they want to do, this can easily be perceived as an attempt to control. I would like some awareness of the limitations every person has and start from there to create a connection.

      I'm curious about your responses
      Kindly
      Niklas
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    • Emma McCreary
      Conal, I literally cracked up when I read the unmasking response of Some organization is confident that you re teaching the way they want you to? It so
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 22, 2008
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        Conal, I literally cracked up when I read the unmasking response of
        "Some organization is confident that you're teaching the way they want
        you to?"" It so effectively unmasks it!

        That resonates so clearly for me that yes, that's *all* just the label
        "certified" could really tell you.

        If I know what organization certified them, and was familiar with the
        organization, I might be able to make some informed assumptions - but
        they'd still be assumptions unless I interacted with the person
        themselves. As far as "protecting the public" goes, I'd rather the
        public *not* take on faith any of my labels, but rather check out for
        themselves if I'm a good fit for them, and feel empowered to choose me
        or unchoose me as a trainer given their awareness of their own needs.
        I feel concerned thinking of the idea of someone staying in a helping
        relationship that isn't meeting their needs because 'oh, this person
        is licensed, they must know what they are doing'.
      • Robert S.
        Hi everyone, I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives. I was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
        Message 3 of 8 , May 27 4:22 PM
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          Hi everyone,

          I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives. I
          was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
          certifcation label for trainers? Here in NYC the local NVC group does
          that but it seems like a long and expensive process. I like the
          concept of self-certification but I have concerns in using the title
          because I think others may find it deceptive if I say certified and not
          self-certified.

          Robert
        • bob gailer
          ... How about we form a mutual certification society ? -- Bob Gailer 919-636-4239 Chapel Hill, NC
          Message 4 of 8 , May 27 4:32 PM
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            Robert S. wrote:
            > Hi everyone,
            >
            > I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives. I
            > was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
            > certifcation label for trainers?

            How about we form a "mutual certification society"?


            --
            Bob Gailer
            919-636-4239 Chapel Hill, NC
          • Robert
            Bob: I would be interested in this approach and I think it is a great way to address the issue. I will e-mail you (and anyone else that is interested) off
            Message 5 of 8 , May 28 8:03 AM
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              Bob:
               
              I would be interested in this approach and I think it is a great way to address the issue.  I will e-mail you (and anyone else that is interested) off list to discuss it further.
               
              Robert

              bob gailer <bgailer@...> wrote:
              Robert S. wrote:
              > Hi everyone,
              >
              > I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives. I
              > was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
              > certifcation label for trainers?

              How about we form a "mutual certification society"?

              --
              Bob Gailer
              919-636-4239 Chapel Hill, NC


            • Conal Elliott
              Hi Robert, Here are some ideas: Get together a group of local people who attend each other s trainings to give live and written feedback. Within your new
              Message 6 of 8 , May 28 8:08 AM
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                Hi Robert,

                Here are some ideas:

                Get together a group of local people who attend each other's trainings to give live and written feedback.  Within your new group, resist the temptation to use *any* kind of labels to distinguish one person's credibility or status from another.  ("In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few" - Shunryu Suzuki.)  If you are going to use words like "trainer", use them in the giraffe sense of "one who trains", not the jackal sense of "one who is approved to train".

                Come up with a name for your new organization (or disorganization) that captures the spirit of what you want to see, perhaps in a subtle contrast to what you see in groups like CNVC and NYCNVC.  Believe in what you're making, and choose a name that reflects your own confidence and respect.

                Notice and breathe through the inner voices that say you have to get some other authority's approval in order to be legitimate.  Remind yourself that so-called authorities are as welcome as any and may have helpful feedback to share, even through their own filters.

                Read and reflect on the Carl Rogers article, found earlier in this discussion group, about certification.

                Turn the top-down quality-control paradigm on its head.  Have "certification" (feedback) flow from your students & clients, since they are better qualified than anyone to assess the effectiveness of your teaching.

                If you haven't already, read through posts in the blog and the discussion group called "NVC Evolves", where you may find some inspiration, encouragement, and clarity to help with your new creation.

                  http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com
                  http://groups.google.com/group/nvc-evolves

                I may not have answered your question as concretely as you'd like.  We can certainly get more concrete.  Meanwhile, I'd love to hear your gut responses to what I've shared so far.

                  - Conal


                On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Robert S. <robertnyc777@...> wrote:
                Hi everyone,

                I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives.  I
                was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
                certifcation label for trainers?  Here in NYC the local NVC group does
                that but it seems like a long and expensive process.  I like the
                concept of self-certification but I have concerns in using the title
                because I think others may find it deceptive if I say certified and not
                self-certified.

                Robert


              • Bhupinder Gill
                Hi I myself really enjoy this approach. I have received evaluations where participants over the last 2 years have indicated that they learned and enjoyed
                Message 7 of 8 , May 28 8:16 AM
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                  Hi
                  I myself really enjoy this approach.  I have received evaluations where participants over the last 2 years have indicated that they  learned and enjoyed from my teachings and yet, I am not sure that, I "am ready for certification...." or that anyone else would evaluate me for the "formal certification," papers.  I am not always enjoying the teachings and attitudes of all the formally certified trainers that I have met as they have not always met my needs.  I guess we are just all human at the end of the day....
                  Bhupinder

                  Conal Elliott <conal@...> wrote:
                  Hi Robert,

                  Here are some ideas:

                  Get together a group of local people who attend each other's trainings to give live and written feedback.  Within your new group, resist the temptation to use *any* kind of labels to distinguish one person's credibility or status from another.  ("In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few" - Shunryu Suzuki.)  If you are going to use words like "trainer", use them in the giraffe sense of "one who trains", not the jackal sense of "one who is approved to train".

                  Come up with a name for your new organization (or disorganization) that captures the spirit of what you want to see, perhaps in a subtle contrast to what you see in groups like CNVC and NYCNVC.  Believe in what you're making, and choose a name that reflects your own confidence and respect.

                  Notice and breathe through the inner voices that say you have to get some other authority's approval in order to be legitimate.  Remind yourself that so-called authorities are as welcome as any and may have helpful feedback to share, even through their own filters.

                  Read and reflect on the Carl Rogers article, found earlier in this discussion group, about certification.

                  Turn the top-down quality-control paradigm on its head.  Have "certification" (feedback) flow from your students & clients, since they are better qualified than anyone to assess the effectiveness of your teaching.

                  If you haven't already, read through posts in the blog and the discussion group called "NVC Evolves", where you may find some inspiration, encouragement, and clarity to help with your new creation.

                    http://evolve. awakeningcompass ion.com
                    http://groups. google.com/ group/nvc- evolves

                  I may not have answered your question as concretely as you'd like.  We can certainly get more concrete.  Meanwhile, I'd love to hear your gut responses to what I've shared so far.

                    - Conal


                  On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Robert S. <robertnyc777@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                  Hi everyone,

                  I am a new member to the list and have enjoyed reading the archives.  I
                  was wondering if there are altneratives to CNVC that give out the
                  certifcation label for trainers?  Here in NYC the local NVC group does
                  that but it seems like a long and expensive process.  I like the
                  concept of self-certification but I have concerns in using the title
                  because I think others may find it deceptive if I say certified and not
                  self-certified.

                  Robert



                • Conal Elliott
                  Hi Bhupinder, Whether or not you think you re ready, you have already received certification! In your case, your students did the certifying, via their
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 28 8:44 AM
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                    Hi Bhupinder,

                    Whether or not you think you're ready, you have already received certification!  In your case, your students did the certifying, via their evaluations.  That kind of bottom-up certification (attestation) is much more meaningful to me than a top-down system, which is based more on abstractions and the past than on the living, breathing present.

                    In making decisions, I like to measure what I care about.  Bottom-up assessment & certification (flowing from students & clients) measure how effectively I'm helping people enjoy life.

                      - Conal

                    On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Bhupinder Gill <bhupindergll@...> wrote:
                    Hi
                    I myself really enjoy this approach.  I have received evaluations where participants over the last 2 years have indicated that they  learned and enjoyed from my teachings and yet, I am not sure that, I "am ready for certification...." or that anyone else would evaluate me for the "formal certification," papers.  I am not always enjoying the teachings and attitudes of all the formally certified trainers that I have met as they have not always met my needs.  I guess we are just all human at the end of the day....
                    Bhupinder

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