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RE: [ematthew] the occasion of the demand for a sign in Matt. 16:1

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  • John Lupia
    Dear Jeffrey: This is a question of geography and demography. In both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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      Dear Jeffrey:

      This is a question of geography and demography. In
      both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper
      Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida (Sidon)
      and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles NE
      from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee; also
      Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
      along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain. The
      demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.

      Best regards,
      John


      > Sent: November 14, 2004 3:39 PM
      > To: Crosstalk2
      > Cc: Synoptic-L; ematthew
      > Subject: [ematthew] the occasion of the demand for
      > a sign in Matt. 16:1
      >
      >
      > With apologies for cross posting.
      >
      > Matthew presents the feeding of the 4000 (Matt.
      > 15:32-39) as the
      > occasion of his second account of the story of a
      > demand for a sign
      > (Matt. 16:1-4; cf. Matt 12:38-39). What is the
      > scholarly consensus
      > nowadays regarding Matthew's assumptions about the
      > ethnicity of the
      > 4000? Is it that they are Gentiles? If so, what
      > evidence is pointed to
      > as supporting this contention? I note, for
      > starters, that the stories
      > which immediately precede that feeding of the 400
      > seem to locate Jesus
      > in Gentile territory and have him healing at least
      > one Gentile. Then
      > there's the curious fact that those who witness
      > Jesus' healings of "the
      > lame, the maimed, the blind, the dumb that they
      > have brought out to him,
      > give glory to "the God of Israel" when they saw
      > the cures that Jesus
      > wrought, which would seem to indicate that they
      > and those whom Jesus
      > heals are not Jews. Anything else?
      >
      > Thanks in advance.
      >
      > Yours,
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > --
      >
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      >
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      > Chicago, IL 60626
      >
      > jgibson000@...
      >
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      =====
      John N. Lupia, III
      Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
      Fax: (732) 349-3910
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
      God Bless America



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    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Even assuming that the Matthew s geography is as precise as you believe it is (and why do you insist on using terminology for the places named at Matt.
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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        John Lupia wrote:

        > Dear Jeffrey:
        >
        > This is a question of geography and demography. In
        > both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper
        > Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida (Sidon)
        > and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles NE
        > from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee; also
        > Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
        > along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain. The
        > demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.

        Even assuming that the Matthew's geography is as precise as you believe it is (and
        why do you insist on using terminology for the places named at Matt. 15:21 and
        15:29 that the Matthew himself doesn't use?), there is still the fact that you
        haven't taken account of -- that the mutes were *brought* to Jesus. The real
        issue is where they were brought from, not where Jesus is.

        Besides that, are there no mountains PARA THN QALASSAN THS GALILAIAS that are
        Gentile territory? And what do you make of the description in Matt. 15:38 that
        the healings take place somewhere away from and outside of the region of Magadan?
        .
        JG
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...
      • John Lupia
        ... First, it is what the text says. Second, you are the one who wishes to know the demography of the mutes. To ignore the geographic locale that can be
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 16, 2004
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          --- "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
          wrote:

          >
          >
          > John Lupia wrote:
          >
          > > Dear Jeffrey:
          > >
          > > This is a question of geography and demography. In
          > > both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in
          > Upper
          > > Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida
          > (Sidon)
          > > and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles
          > NE
          > > from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee;
          > also
          > > Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
          > > along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain.
          > The
          > > demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.
          >
          > Even assuming that the Matthew's geography is as
          > precise as you believe it is


          First, it is what the text says. Second, you are the
          one who wishes to know the demography of the mutes. To
          ignore the geographic locale that can be considered in
          answering or attempting to answer the question, would,
          in my opinion, fail to be a complete investigation on
          the question and would leave you open to criticism on
          that point. Third, I was imprecise myself since I
          noticed a lapsus calami on my part when I wrote "Jesus
          travels 35 miles NE" when it should have read "Jesus
          travels 35 miles SE". Sorry for the typo. Fourth, it
          has nothing to do with what I personally believe. I
          was pointing out essential material that must be
          considered using scientific criteria.




          (and
          > why do you insist on using terminology for the
          > places named at Matt. 15:21 and
          > 15:29 that the Matthew himself doesn't use?),


          The nomenclature of the geographic places is properly
          given with both modern or contemporary names as well
          as those given by Matthew or any other antique writer
          (the ancient names) as a standard academic form as I
          was taught back in graduate biblical studies.


          there
          > is still the fact that you
          > haven't taken account of -- that the mutes were
          > *brought* to Jesus.


          This is selective on your part. You choose to not give
          credence to Matthew's geography but at the same time
          choose to completely believe "that the mutes were
          *brought* to Jesus. How do you make determinations on
          which parts of the text you selectively choose to
          believe and discard or disregard? Moreover, the lame,
          blind and mutes were among the crowd that came to
          Jesus from the geographic location on the Lake
          Kinneret rim that might be identifiable in light of Mt
          16:5,13. Since traveling to the other side of the Lake
          Kinneret rim placed them within walking distance of
          Caesarea Philippi NE it indicates that the time of the
          healing of the lame, blind and mutes he was NW in
          Upper Galilee as I said yesterday. Being NE in the
          district of Caesarea Phili put Jesus then on the
          east-west highway, an international trade route
          running from there to Sur (Tyre), Lebanon and
          Damascus, Syria. If Jesus and the crowds with the
          infirm had convened there then your inquiry regarding
          Gentile ethnicity would be further strengthened and
          legitimized. However, Mt 16:5 tells us they crossed
          over to the other side to be in that location. So,
          hence, the crux of your question becomes severely
          weakened in any attempt to identify the infirm with
          Gentile specific ethnicity. However, if you
          selectively choose to disregard Matthew's geography
          the question of demography will remain open and
          answerable exclusively by other criteria that ignores
          geography.


          The real
          > issue is where they were brought from, not where
          > Jesus is.


          This needs to be seriously reconsidered by you if you
          are to be taken seriously.

          > Besides that, are there no mountains PARA THN
          > QALASSAN THS GALILAIAS that are
          > Gentile territory? And what do you make of the
          > description in Matt. 15:38 that
          > the healings take place somewhere away from and
          > outside of the region of Magadan?

          See my above comments regarding this. Curiously, you
          selectively choose to believe this and are aware that
          Jesus, in Matthew's description, is on the west side,
          not the east. If they are away from Magadan (Magdala)
          they are obviously north or possibly south, but
          certainly, not east prohibited by Mt 16:5.

          Cheers,
          John

          =====
          John N. Lupia, III
          Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
          Fax: (732) 349-3910
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
          God Bless America



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