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Re: [ematthew] the occasion of the demand for a sign in Matt. 16:1

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  • MillerJimE@AOL.COM
    Glorifying the God of Israel implies to me that they were Jews. I understand how a reader might conclude that this God of Israel implies non-Israelites,
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 14, 2004
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      "Glorifying the God of Israel" implies to me that they were Jews. I
      understand how a reader might conclude that this "God of Israel" implies
      non-Israelites, but it doesn't seem odd to me to have a Jewish crowd using that phrase.
      I always assumed the crowd was Jewish until I read your post. The previous
      Syro-Phoenician woman was very clearly specified as non-Jewish. I assumed a
      similar specification would be needed for the crowd if it was non-Jewish.
      Also there are two other problems with a non-Jewish identity. Would
      non-Jews be called "this evil and adulterous generation"? Adulterous implies
      Israel, not gentile listeners. The gentiles are not God's people, therefore
      cannot be adulterous. Second, the "sign of Jona" would mean a lot more to a Jewish
      audience than a non-Jewish audience. Jonah, of course, was the figure of a
      Jewish story.
      What intrigues me on this issue is something of a parallel in the Gospel
      of John 6:26. Jesus had fed the 5000 (not 4000, I know), and there was the
      crossing of the sea, and the audience is clearly Jewish, as part of the
      discourse occurres in the synagogue. Jesus tells the crowd, "Amen, amen I say to you,
      you do not seek me because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of
      the loaves." Matthew's crowd seeks signs but John's crowd does not -- it just
      seeks to fill its belly. If John was familiar with the synoptics, this
      contrast in John is quite intriguing.

      Jim Miller


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Lupia
      Dear Jeffrey: This is a question of geography and demography. In both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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        Dear Jeffrey:

        This is a question of geography and demography. In
        both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper
        Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida (Sidon)
        and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles NE
        from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee; also
        Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
        along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain. The
        demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.

        Best regards,
        John


        > Sent: November 14, 2004 3:39 PM
        > To: Crosstalk2
        > Cc: Synoptic-L; ematthew
        > Subject: [ematthew] the occasion of the demand for
        > a sign in Matt. 16:1
        >
        >
        > With apologies for cross posting.
        >
        > Matthew presents the feeding of the 4000 (Matt.
        > 15:32-39) as the
        > occasion of his second account of the story of a
        > demand for a sign
        > (Matt. 16:1-4; cf. Matt 12:38-39). What is the
        > scholarly consensus
        > nowadays regarding Matthew's assumptions about the
        > ethnicity of the
        > 4000? Is it that they are Gentiles? If so, what
        > evidence is pointed to
        > as supporting this contention? I note, for
        > starters, that the stories
        > which immediately precede that feeding of the 400
        > seem to locate Jesus
        > in Gentile territory and have him healing at least
        > one Gentile. Then
        > there's the curious fact that those who witness
        > Jesus' healings of "the
        > lame, the maimed, the blind, the dumb that they
        > have brought out to him,
        > give glory to "the God of Israel" when they saw
        > the cures that Jesus
        > wrought, which would seem to indicate that they
        > and those whom Jesus
        > heals are not Jews. Anything else?
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        > Yours,
        >
        > Jeffrey
        >
        > --
        >
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
        >
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        > Chicago, IL 60626
        >
        > jgibson000@...
        >
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        =====
        John N. Lupia, III
        Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
        Fax: (732) 349-3910
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        God Bless America



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      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Even assuming that the Matthew s geography is as precise as you believe it is (and why do you insist on using terminology for the places named at Matt.
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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          John Lupia wrote:

          > Dear Jeffrey:
          >
          > This is a question of geography and demography. In
          > both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in Upper
          > Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida (Sidon)
          > and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles NE
          > from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee; also
          > Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
          > along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain. The
          > demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.

          Even assuming that the Matthew's geography is as precise as you believe it is (and
          why do you insist on using terminology for the places named at Matt. 15:21 and
          15:29 that the Matthew himself doesn't use?), there is still the fact that you
          haven't taken account of -- that the mutes were *brought* to Jesus. The real
          issue is where they were brought from, not where Jesus is.

          Besides that, are there no mountains PARA THN QALASSAN THS GALILAIAS that are
          Gentile territory? And what do you make of the description in Matt. 15:38 that
          the healings take place somewhere away from and outside of the region of Magadan?
          .
          JG
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...
        • John Lupia
          ... First, it is what the text says. Second, you are the one who wishes to know the demography of the mutes. To ignore the geographic locale that can be
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 16, 2004
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            --- "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
            wrote:

            >
            >
            > John Lupia wrote:
            >
            > > Dear Jeffrey:
            > >
            > > This is a question of geography and demography. In
            > > both Matt. 16:1-4 and Matt 12:38-39 Jesus is in
            > Upper
            > > Galilee. Mt 15:21-28 he is in Lebanon at Saida
            > (Sidon)
            > > and Sur (Tyre). Mt 15:29-39 Jesus travels 35 miles
            > NE
            > > from Sur (Tyre) to Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee;
            > also
            > > Lake Tiberias). Mt 15:29b places him on a mountain
            > > along the Lake Kinneret rim. Where is uncertain.
            > The
            > > demographic mix would be predominantly Jewish.
            >
            > Even assuming that the Matthew's geography is as
            > precise as you believe it is


            First, it is what the text says. Second, you are the
            one who wishes to know the demography of the mutes. To
            ignore the geographic locale that can be considered in
            answering or attempting to answer the question, would,
            in my opinion, fail to be a complete investigation on
            the question and would leave you open to criticism on
            that point. Third, I was imprecise myself since I
            noticed a lapsus calami on my part when I wrote "Jesus
            travels 35 miles NE" when it should have read "Jesus
            travels 35 miles SE". Sorry for the typo. Fourth, it
            has nothing to do with what I personally believe. I
            was pointing out essential material that must be
            considered using scientific criteria.




            (and
            > why do you insist on using terminology for the
            > places named at Matt. 15:21 and
            > 15:29 that the Matthew himself doesn't use?),


            The nomenclature of the geographic places is properly
            given with both modern or contemporary names as well
            as those given by Matthew or any other antique writer
            (the ancient names) as a standard academic form as I
            was taught back in graduate biblical studies.


            there
            > is still the fact that you
            > haven't taken account of -- that the mutes were
            > *brought* to Jesus.


            This is selective on your part. You choose to not give
            credence to Matthew's geography but at the same time
            choose to completely believe "that the mutes were
            *brought* to Jesus. How do you make determinations on
            which parts of the text you selectively choose to
            believe and discard or disregard? Moreover, the lame,
            blind and mutes were among the crowd that came to
            Jesus from the geographic location on the Lake
            Kinneret rim that might be identifiable in light of Mt
            16:5,13. Since traveling to the other side of the Lake
            Kinneret rim placed them within walking distance of
            Caesarea Philippi NE it indicates that the time of the
            healing of the lame, blind and mutes he was NW in
            Upper Galilee as I said yesterday. Being NE in the
            district of Caesarea Phili put Jesus then on the
            east-west highway, an international trade route
            running from there to Sur (Tyre), Lebanon and
            Damascus, Syria. If Jesus and the crowds with the
            infirm had convened there then your inquiry regarding
            Gentile ethnicity would be further strengthened and
            legitimized. However, Mt 16:5 tells us they crossed
            over to the other side to be in that location. So,
            hence, the crux of your question becomes severely
            weakened in any attempt to identify the infirm with
            Gentile specific ethnicity. However, if you
            selectively choose to disregard Matthew's geography
            the question of demography will remain open and
            answerable exclusively by other criteria that ignores
            geography.


            The real
            > issue is where they were brought from, not where
            > Jesus is.


            This needs to be seriously reconsidered by you if you
            are to be taken seriously.

            > Besides that, are there no mountains PARA THN
            > QALASSAN THS GALILAIAS that are
            > Gentile territory? And what do you make of the
            > description in Matt. 15:38 that
            > the healings take place somewhere away from and
            > outside of the region of Magadan?

            See my above comments regarding this. Curiously, you
            selectively choose to believe this and are aware that
            Jesus, in Matthew's description, is on the west side,
            not the east. If they are away from Magadan (Magdala)
            they are obviously north or possibly south, but
            certainly, not east prohibited by Mt 16:5.

            Cheers,
            John

            =====
            John N. Lupia, III
            Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
            Fax: (732) 349-3910
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
            God Bless America



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