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Re: [ematthew] Evangelical Matthew?

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  • LARRY SWAIN
    ... Ed, I know exactly what you mean. In another context in recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what would a first century Galilean Jew hear
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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      --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
      > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
      > Standard Time,
      > theswain@... writes:

      > >
      >
      > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
      > men" pericope as
      > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
      > perception could be
      > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
      > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
      > in other directions.
      >
      > Ed Tyler

      Ed,

      I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
      recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
      would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
      says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
      really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
      converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
      doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

      Larry
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of Fishers of Men _. Don t know off hand
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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        LARRY SWAIN wrote:

        >
        > --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
        > > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
        > > Standard Time,
        > > theswain@... writes:
        >
        > > >
        > >
        > > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
        > > men" pericope as
        > > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
        > > perception could be
        > > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
        > > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
        > > in other directions.
        > >
        > > Ed Tyler
        >
        > Ed,
        >
        > I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
        > recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
        > would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
        > says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
        > really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
        > converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
        > doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

        FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library
        Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of "Fishers of Men"_. Don't
        know off hand who the author was, and I'm too lazy right now to look at
        the Word Commentary where it would probably be listed.

        Yours,

        Jeffrey
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • LARRY SWAIN
        Full details on the books are: Wuellner, Wilhelm The Meaning of Fishers of Men Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967. Has anyone read it?
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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          Full details on the books are:

          Wuellner, Wilhelm
          The Meaning of Fishers of Men
          Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967.

          Has anyone read it?
        • MillerJimE@AOL.COM
          I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late 1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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            I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late
            1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
            palestinian Jewish context. Matthew, written in the diaspora for members of
            a church which had been evangelizing for some time probably understood these
            quotes evangelically. However, in a palestinian Jewish context they could
            have a different meaning.
            Jim Miller
          • Munachi E. Ezeogu
            I have not read Wuellner s book, but a study available at Creighton University website has this to say about it: Among the sources that construct a view a
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 13, 2003
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              I have not read Wuellner's book, but a study available at Creighton
              University website has this to say about it:

              "Among the sources that construct a view a (sic) discipleship from Mt 4:19,
              Wuellner (1967) writes that this passage implies that Jesus' role is that of
              both teacher and prophet. Jesus offering the position of "fisherman"
              connotes Jesus' granting authority in teaching and judgment to his
              disciples, and, Wuellner argues, to his church. Wuellner further discusses
              fishing in two lights: that of Jesus' teachings as the new Torah and that of
              Jesus as the new Moses. These two views are linked by the concept of
              men-fishing: the fishing that occurs in the church by men-fishers and God's
              judgment."

              The article which has some useful views and biblography can be accessed at
              http://moses.creighton.edu/malina/ntstudy/Schwartz.htm.

              Ernest M. Ezeogu
              (Toronto School of Theology)


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            • Matthew Estrada
              ... Hello Larry, I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of Matthew s gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find interesting. I believe they show that
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 13, 2003
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                --- "Larry J. Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                > Our discussion a couple of months ago on the
                > non-evangelical nature of the last verses of the
                > gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
                > Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder
                > about some of the other passages that have
                > traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
                > nature: are they?


                Hello Larry,

                I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of
                Matthew's gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find
                interesting. I believe they show that Matthew was
                evangelical in nature. He tried depicting Jesus both
                as Moses who delivers his people from a greater
                slavery than what the Israelites had formerly known
                via a greater Exodus than what the Israelites had
                formerly experienced, and as God who sends his
                followers out to announce his salvation even as God
                sent Moses out to announce his earlier salvation. You
                can reference this post by going to the following url:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/message/13056




                =====

                Matthew Estrada

                113 Laurel Court

                Peachtree City, Ga 30269


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              • john Paul
                anyone s coptic or german skills up to evaluating this? http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html MS 2650 CODEX SCHØYEN BIBLE: MATTHEW MS in Mesokemic
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 14, 2003
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                  anyone's coptic or german skills up to evaluating
                  this?

                  http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html

                  MS 2650

                  CODEX SCH�YEN


                  BIBLE: MATTHEW
                  MS in Mesokemic (Middle Egyptian or Oxyrhynchite
                  dialect) on papyrus, Oxyrhynchus region, Egypt, 1st
                  half of 4th c., 39 ff. (- ca. 6 ff.), 23x20 cm, single
                  column, (18x14-16 cm), 25-28 lines in a fine regular
                  Coptic uncial.

                  Context: MSS 2648, 2649, 2651 and 14 ff. of Isaiah (in
                  Mesokemic, ca. 300) were found tipped in among the
                  leaves of the present codex, which originally had ca.
                  45 ff.
                  Probably from the same hoard as the Chester Beatty
                  papyri, now in Dublin: Chester Beatty Library.

                  Provenance: 1. Monastery in the Oxyrhynchus region,
                  Egypt (4th c. - ca. 1930); 2. Antiquity dealer,
                  Alexandria (ca. 1930); 3. Private collector, Z�rich.

                  Commentary: The text opens at ch. 5:38 and goes more
                  or less continuously to the end.

                  The present codex is the earliest Matthew in any
                  Coptic dialect. The 11 chapters, 6-9, 13-17, 22 and
                  28, and a great number of verses elsewhere, are in
                  addition the earliest witnesses to these parts of the
                  Bible. The text is unique, not following any Coptic
                  nor Greek manuscripts known of Matthew.

                  Prof. Dr. Hans-Martin Schenke in his editio princeps
                  of the text, has named the manuscript Codex Sch�yen,
                  with the siglum Mae 2. (siglum Mae 1 being the Scheide
                  Codex of 5th c.) His conclusions are that the text is
                  not representing a free text transmission in relation
                  to all the other extant Greek and Coptic manuscripts
                  of Matthew, but that it is a correct translation of an
                  entirely different Gospel of Matthew. There is only
                  one other Gospel of Matthew known, the lost Hebrew
                  Gospel of the Jewish Christians mentioned by the
                  church fathers. This would have been the Hebrew
                  exemplar of the Greek translation the present
                  manuscript is based upon. Actually the famous
                  statement by Papias that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew
                  was translated into Greek several times (Eusebius,
                  hist. eccl. III, 39, 16), now come in a new light. Due
                  to a series of textual differences between Codex
                  Sch�yen and the Canonical Gospel, it appears that both
                  Gospels derive from different versions of the Hebrew
                  Matthew. The consequence is that the relationship
                  among the Synoptic Gospels has to be entirely
                  re-evaluated, causing far-reaching and dramatic
                  consequences for New Testament research.

                  Published: Hans-Martin Schenke in the series
                  Manuscripts in The Sch�yen Collection, ed. Jens
                  Braarvig; Coptic Papyri, vol. I. Oslo 2001.




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