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Re: [ematthew] Evangelical Matthew?

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  • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time, ... It s be difficult for me to perceive the fishers of men pericope as anything but
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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      In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time,
      theswain@... writes:

      > Our discussion a couple of months ago on the non-evangelical nature of
      > the last verses of the gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
      > Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder about some of the
      > other passages that have traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
      > nature: are they? Here I think of the "fishers of men" from chapter
      > 4, the sower and the seed parable, the "fields are white unto harvest"
      > from the end of chapter 9. Are these truly "evangelical" at all? Or
      > are they "evangelical" in a sense a bit different than the traditional
      > take--that is in light of the "make disciples" statement at the end of
      > the gospel...does our understanding of that phrase echo backwards
      > through the gospel to color our reading of the previous passages?
      >
      > So what do you folks think?
      >
      > Larry Swain
      >

      It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of men" pericope as
      anything but evangelical, although I confess that perception could be
      colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed, etc., as perhaps metaphorical
      in other directions.

      Ed Tyler

      http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html



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    • LARRY SWAIN
      ... Ed, I know exactly what you mean. In another context in recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what would a first century Galilean Jew hear
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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        --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
        > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
        > Standard Time,
        > theswain@... writes:

        > >
        >
        > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
        > men" pericope as
        > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
        > perception could be
        > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
        > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
        > in other directions.
        >
        > Ed Tyler

        Ed,

        I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
        recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
        would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
        says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
        really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
        converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
        doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

        Larry
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of Fishers of Men _. Don t know off hand
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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          LARRY SWAIN wrote:

          >
          > --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
          > > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
          > > Standard Time,
          > > theswain@... writes:
          >
          > > >
          > >
          > > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
          > > men" pericope as
          > > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
          > > perception could be
          > > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
          > > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
          > > in other directions.
          > >
          > > Ed Tyler
          >
          > Ed,
          >
          > I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
          > recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
          > would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
          > says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
          > really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
          > converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
          > doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

          FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library
          Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of "Fishers of Men"_. Don't
          know off hand who the author was, and I'm too lazy right now to look at
          the Word Commentary where it would probably be listed.

          Yours,

          Jeffrey
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...



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        • LARRY SWAIN
          Full details on the books are: Wuellner, Wilhelm The Meaning of Fishers of Men Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967. Has anyone read it?
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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            Full details on the books are:

            Wuellner, Wilhelm
            The Meaning of Fishers of Men
            Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967.

            Has anyone read it?
          • MillerJimE@AOL.COM
            I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late 1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 12, 2003
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              I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late
              1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
              palestinian Jewish context. Matthew, written in the diaspora for members of
              a church which had been evangelizing for some time probably understood these
              quotes evangelically. However, in a palestinian Jewish context they could
              have a different meaning.
              Jim Miller
            • Munachi E. Ezeogu
              I have not read Wuellner s book, but a study available at Creighton University website has this to say about it: Among the sources that construct a view a
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 13, 2003
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                I have not read Wuellner's book, but a study available at Creighton
                University website has this to say about it:

                "Among the sources that construct a view a (sic) discipleship from Mt 4:19,
                Wuellner (1967) writes that this passage implies that Jesus' role is that of
                both teacher and prophet. Jesus offering the position of "fisherman"
                connotes Jesus' granting authority in teaching and judgment to his
                disciples, and, Wuellner argues, to his church. Wuellner further discusses
                fishing in two lights: that of Jesus' teachings as the new Torah and that of
                Jesus as the new Moses. These two views are linked by the concept of
                men-fishing: the fishing that occurs in the church by men-fishers and God's
                judgment."

                The article which has some useful views and biblography can be accessed at
                http://moses.creighton.edu/malina/ntstudy/Schwartz.htm.

                Ernest M. Ezeogu
                (Toronto School of Theology)


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              • Matthew Estrada
                ... Hello Larry, I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of Matthew s gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find interesting. I believe they show that
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 13, 2003
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                  --- "Larry J. Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                  > Our discussion a couple of months ago on the
                  > non-evangelical nature of the last verses of the
                  > gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
                  > Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder
                  > about some of the other passages that have
                  > traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
                  > nature: are they?


                  Hello Larry,

                  I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of
                  Matthew's gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find
                  interesting. I believe they show that Matthew was
                  evangelical in nature. He tried depicting Jesus both
                  as Moses who delivers his people from a greater
                  slavery than what the Israelites had formerly known
                  via a greater Exodus than what the Israelites had
                  formerly experienced, and as God who sends his
                  followers out to announce his salvation even as God
                  sent Moses out to announce his earlier salvation. You
                  can reference this post by going to the following url:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/message/13056




                  =====

                  Matthew Estrada

                  113 Laurel Court

                  Peachtree City, Ga 30269


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                • john Paul
                  anyone s coptic or german skills up to evaluating this? http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html MS 2650 CODEX SCHØYEN BIBLE: MATTHEW MS in Mesokemic
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 14, 2003
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                    anyone's coptic or german skills up to evaluating
                    this?

                    http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html

                    MS 2650

                    CODEX SCH�YEN


                    BIBLE: MATTHEW
                    MS in Mesokemic (Middle Egyptian or Oxyrhynchite
                    dialect) on papyrus, Oxyrhynchus region, Egypt, 1st
                    half of 4th c., 39 ff. (- ca. 6 ff.), 23x20 cm, single
                    column, (18x14-16 cm), 25-28 lines in a fine regular
                    Coptic uncial.

                    Context: MSS 2648, 2649, 2651 and 14 ff. of Isaiah (in
                    Mesokemic, ca. 300) were found tipped in among the
                    leaves of the present codex, which originally had ca.
                    45 ff.
                    Probably from the same hoard as the Chester Beatty
                    papyri, now in Dublin: Chester Beatty Library.

                    Provenance: 1. Monastery in the Oxyrhynchus region,
                    Egypt (4th c. - ca. 1930); 2. Antiquity dealer,
                    Alexandria (ca. 1930); 3. Private collector, Z�rich.

                    Commentary: The text opens at ch. 5:38 and goes more
                    or less continuously to the end.

                    The present codex is the earliest Matthew in any
                    Coptic dialect. The 11 chapters, 6-9, 13-17, 22 and
                    28, and a great number of verses elsewhere, are in
                    addition the earliest witnesses to these parts of the
                    Bible. The text is unique, not following any Coptic
                    nor Greek manuscripts known of Matthew.

                    Prof. Dr. Hans-Martin Schenke in his editio princeps
                    of the text, has named the manuscript Codex Sch�yen,
                    with the siglum Mae 2. (siglum Mae 1 being the Scheide
                    Codex of 5th c.) His conclusions are that the text is
                    not representing a free text transmission in relation
                    to all the other extant Greek and Coptic manuscripts
                    of Matthew, but that it is a correct translation of an
                    entirely different Gospel of Matthew. There is only
                    one other Gospel of Matthew known, the lost Hebrew
                    Gospel of the Jewish Christians mentioned by the
                    church fathers. This would have been the Hebrew
                    exemplar of the Greek translation the present
                    manuscript is based upon. Actually the famous
                    statement by Papias that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew
                    was translated into Greek several times (Eusebius,
                    hist. eccl. III, 39, 16), now come in a new light. Due
                    to a series of textual differences between Codex
                    Sch�yen and the Canonical Gospel, it appears that both
                    Gospels derive from different versions of the Hebrew
                    Matthew. The consequence is that the relationship
                    among the Synoptic Gospels has to be entirely
                    re-evaluated, causing far-reaching and dramatic
                    consequences for New Testament research.

                    Published: Hans-Martin Schenke in the series
                    Manuscripts in The Sch�yen Collection, ed. Jens
                    Braarvig; Coptic Papyri, vol. I. Oslo 2001.




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