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Evangelical Matthew?

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  • Larry J. Swain
    Our discussion a couple of months ago on the non-evangelical nature of the last verses of the gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as Literature class
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 12 6:55 PM
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      Our discussion a couple of months ago on the non-evangelical nature of
      the last verses of the gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
      Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder about some of the
      other passages that have traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
      nature: are they? Here I think of the "fishers of men" from chapter
      4, the sower and the seed parable, the "fields are white unto harvest"
      from the end of chapter 9. Are these truly "evangelical" at all? Or
      are they "evangelical" in a sense a bit different than the traditional
      take--that is in light of the "make disciples" statement at the end of
      the gospel...does our understanding of that phrase echo backwards
      through the gospel to color our reading of the previous passages?

      So what do you folks think?

      Larry Swain
    • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time, ... It s be difficult for me to perceive the fishers of men pericope as anything but
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 12 7:02 PM
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        In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central Standard Time,
        theswain@... writes:

        > Our discussion a couple of months ago on the non-evangelical nature of
        > the last verses of the gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
        > Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder about some of the
        > other passages that have traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
        > nature: are they? Here I think of the "fishers of men" from chapter
        > 4, the sower and the seed parable, the "fields are white unto harvest"
        > from the end of chapter 9. Are these truly "evangelical" at all? Or
        > are they "evangelical" in a sense a bit different than the traditional
        > take--that is in light of the "make disciples" statement at the end of
        > the gospel...does our understanding of that phrase echo backwards
        > through the gospel to color our reading of the previous passages?
        >
        > So what do you folks think?
        >
        > Larry Swain
        >

        It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of men" pericope as
        anything but evangelical, although I confess that perception could be
        colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed, etc., as perhaps metaphorical
        in other directions.

        Ed Tyler

        http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • LARRY SWAIN
        ... Ed, I know exactly what you mean. In another context in recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what would a first century Galilean Jew hear
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 12 7:32 PM
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          --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
          > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
          > Standard Time,
          > theswain@... writes:

          > >
          >
          > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
          > men" pericope as
          > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
          > perception could be
          > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
          > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
          > in other directions.
          >
          > Ed Tyler

          Ed,

          I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
          recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
          would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
          says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
          really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
          converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
          doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

          Larry
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of Fishers of Men _. Don t know off hand
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 12 7:37 PM
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            LARRY SWAIN wrote:

            >
            > --- LeeEdgarTyler@... wrote:
            > > In a message dated 4/12/2003 8:57:21 PM Central
            > > Standard Time,
            > > theswain@... writes:
            >
            > > >
            > >
            > > It's be difficult for me to perceive the "fishers of
            > > men" pericope as
            > > anything but evangelical, although I confess that
            > > perception could be
            > > colored. I can, however, see the sower & seed,
            > > etc., as perhaps metaphorical
            > > in other directions.
            > >
            > > Ed Tyler
            >
            > Ed,
            >
            > I know exactly what you mean. In another context in
            > recent months, I was forced to ask myself though, what
            > would a first century Galilean Jew hear when Jesus
            > says "I will make you fishers of men"? Would he
            > really hear "I will make you preachers of kingdom
            > converting the unbelieving?" I doubt it, but that
            > doesn't mean I understand the phrase any better.

            FWIW, there was an entire book put out in the New Testament Library
            Series many years ago entitled _The Meaning of "Fishers of Men"_. Don't
            know off hand who the author was, and I'm too lazy right now to look at
            the Word Commentary where it would probably be listed.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • LARRY SWAIN
            Full details on the books are: Wuellner, Wilhelm The Meaning of Fishers of Men Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967. Has anyone read it?
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 12 8:21 PM
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              Full details on the books are:

              Wuellner, Wilhelm
              The Meaning of Fishers of Men
              Philadelphia Westminster Press 1967.

              Has anyone read it?
            • MillerJimE@AOL.COM
              I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late 1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 12 9:38 PM
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                I think we need to differentiate between the gospel of Matthew as a late
                1st century text and its sources which may go back to Jesus and/or a strictly
                palestinian Jewish context. Matthew, written in the diaspora for members of
                a church which had been evangelizing for some time probably understood these
                quotes evangelically. However, in a palestinian Jewish context they could
                have a different meaning.
                Jim Miller
              • Munachi E. Ezeogu
                I have not read Wuellner s book, but a study available at Creighton University website has this to say about it: Among the sources that construct a view a
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 13 12:54 PM
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                  I have not read Wuellner's book, but a study available at Creighton
                  University website has this to say about it:

                  "Among the sources that construct a view a (sic) discipleship from Mt 4:19,
                  Wuellner (1967) writes that this passage implies that Jesus' role is that of
                  both teacher and prophet. Jesus offering the position of "fisherman"
                  connotes Jesus' granting authority in teaching and judgment to his
                  disciples, and, Wuellner argues, to his church. Wuellner further discusses
                  fishing in two lights: that of Jesus' teachings as the new Torah and that of
                  Jesus as the new Moses. These two views are linked by the concept of
                  men-fishing: the fishing that occurs in the church by men-fishers and God's
                  judgment."

                  The article which has some useful views and biblography can be accessed at
                  http://moses.creighton.edu/malina/ntstudy/Schwartz.htm.

                  Ernest M. Ezeogu
                  (Toronto School of Theology)


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                • Matthew Estrada
                  ... Hello Larry, I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of Matthew s gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find interesting. I believe they show that
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 13 6:31 PM
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                    --- "Larry J. Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                    > Our discussion a couple of months ago on the
                    > non-evangelical nature of the last verses of the
                    > gospel, and discussing things in my Bible as
                    > Literature class that I teach, and now I wonder
                    > about some of the other passages that have
                    > traditionally been taken as "evangelical" in
                    > nature: are they?


                    Hello Larry,

                    I posted my thoughts on the last few verses of
                    Matthew's gospel on Crosstalk2 which you might find
                    interesting. I believe they show that Matthew was
                    evangelical in nature. He tried depicting Jesus both
                    as Moses who delivers his people from a greater
                    slavery than what the Israelites had formerly known
                    via a greater Exodus than what the Israelites had
                    formerly experienced, and as God who sends his
                    followers out to announce his salvation even as God
                    sent Moses out to announce his earlier salvation. You
                    can reference this post by going to the following url:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/message/13056




                    =====

                    Matthew Estrada

                    113 Laurel Court

                    Peachtree City, Ga 30269


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                  • john Paul
                    anyone s coptic or german skills up to evaluating this? http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html MS 2650 CODEX SCHØYEN BIBLE: MATTHEW MS in Mesokemic
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 14 9:19 AM
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                      anyone's coptic or german skills up to evaluating
                      this?

                      http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/413.html

                      MS 2650

                      CODEX SCH�YEN


                      BIBLE: MATTHEW
                      MS in Mesokemic (Middle Egyptian or Oxyrhynchite
                      dialect) on papyrus, Oxyrhynchus region, Egypt, 1st
                      half of 4th c., 39 ff. (- ca. 6 ff.), 23x20 cm, single
                      column, (18x14-16 cm), 25-28 lines in a fine regular
                      Coptic uncial.

                      Context: MSS 2648, 2649, 2651 and 14 ff. of Isaiah (in
                      Mesokemic, ca. 300) were found tipped in among the
                      leaves of the present codex, which originally had ca.
                      45 ff.
                      Probably from the same hoard as the Chester Beatty
                      papyri, now in Dublin: Chester Beatty Library.

                      Provenance: 1. Monastery in the Oxyrhynchus region,
                      Egypt (4th c. - ca. 1930); 2. Antiquity dealer,
                      Alexandria (ca. 1930); 3. Private collector, Z�rich.

                      Commentary: The text opens at ch. 5:38 and goes more
                      or less continuously to the end.

                      The present codex is the earliest Matthew in any
                      Coptic dialect. The 11 chapters, 6-9, 13-17, 22 and
                      28, and a great number of verses elsewhere, are in
                      addition the earliest witnesses to these parts of the
                      Bible. The text is unique, not following any Coptic
                      nor Greek manuscripts known of Matthew.

                      Prof. Dr. Hans-Martin Schenke in his editio princeps
                      of the text, has named the manuscript Codex Sch�yen,
                      with the siglum Mae 2. (siglum Mae 1 being the Scheide
                      Codex of 5th c.) His conclusions are that the text is
                      not representing a free text transmission in relation
                      to all the other extant Greek and Coptic manuscripts
                      of Matthew, but that it is a correct translation of an
                      entirely different Gospel of Matthew. There is only
                      one other Gospel of Matthew known, the lost Hebrew
                      Gospel of the Jewish Christians mentioned by the
                      church fathers. This would have been the Hebrew
                      exemplar of the Greek translation the present
                      manuscript is based upon. Actually the famous
                      statement by Papias that the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew
                      was translated into Greek several times (Eusebius,
                      hist. eccl. III, 39, 16), now come in a new light. Due
                      to a series of textual differences between Codex
                      Sch�yen and the Canonical Gospel, it appears that both
                      Gospels derive from different versions of the Hebrew
                      Matthew. The consequence is that the relationship
                      among the Synoptic Gospels has to be entirely
                      re-evaluated, causing far-reaching and dramatic
                      consequences for New Testament research.

                      Published: Hans-Martin Schenke in the series
                      Manuscripts in The Sch�yen Collection, ed. Jens
                      Braarvig; Coptic Papyri, vol. I. Oslo 2001.




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