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More tengwar in PE19 (in OP2)

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  • Ugo
    Hello everyone, I haven t found any mention here, but there are more tengwar in PE19 than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2. (sorry but I m not
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 1, 2012
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      Hello everyone,
      I haven't found any mention here, but there are more tengwar in PE19 than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2.

      (sorry but I'm not very familiar with the structural reference system usually employed in DTS, so I don't dare to try to use it)

      p.70:
      5 tengwar
      (a) óre, rómen, silme and esse in the evolution of *d*, *s* and *r*.
      (b) anna in early parmaquesta for *g- > ʒ- > '-*

      p.71:
      4 tengwar
      formen, súle, aha and hyarmen in the evolution of the aspirate stops *th*, *ph*, *kh*.

      p.74:
      2 tengwar
      aha and halla for *h*

      p.76:
      1 tengwa
      quesse ( internal explanation for its transcription with *q* together with *qu*, "as occasionally by Aelfwine", owning to the close resemblance of *q* with quesse)

      p.82:
      2 tengwar
      aha and halla in *r* and *l* < *rh*, *lh*

      p.84:
      2 tengwar
      again as in p.32-49 the two tengwar coded 19 and 1A in the Unicode proposal (here 1A is assigned to *kt* as )

      p.88:
      3 tengwar
      (a) hwesta sindarinwa and halla for *hw* (intial and medial in Parmaquesta)
      (b) formen with a bar below apparently for *ff*

      Ugo|Elistir
    • j_mach_wust@shared-files.de
      ... Thanks for pointing that out! Indeed, this raises an intricate question: How should we count these? They are not tengwar autographs, seeing as they are
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 2, 2012
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        On 2012-01-01, at 17:54, Ugo wrote:

        > Hello everyone,
        > I haven't found any mention here, but there are more tengwar in PE19 than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2.

        Thanks for pointing that out! Indeed, this raises an intricate question: How should we count these? They are not tengwar autographs, seeing as they are only reproduced in Tengwar Annatar characters. Still, they come directly from Tolkien's manuscript.

        Didn't we already have cases like these in previous volumes of PE or VT? I couldn't tell offhand. In any case, there are some more tengwar like these in PE19, at least on page 41. When I enumerated the tengwar from page 41 in #328, I only counted the autographed tengwar, and not the Annatar tengwar.


        > (sorry but I'm not very familiar with the structural reference system usually employed in DTS, so I don't dare to try to use it)

        (I'm glad you didn't since I think the tengwar you are referring to would have been significantly more difficult to find! :)


        > p.70:
        > 5 tengwar
        > (a) óre, rómen, silme and esse in the evolution of *d*, *s* and *r*.
        > (b) anna in early parmaquesta for *g- > ʒ- > '-*
        >
        > p.71:
        > 4 tengwar
        > formen, súle, aha and hyarmen in the evolution of the aspirate stops *th*, *ph*, *kh*.

        I see you only count the number of different tengwar (tengwar types, if you will). In the DTS, the Forodrim use to count the total number of tengwar, including doubles (tengwar tokens). On that page, I count seven.

        > p.74:
        > 2 tengwar
        > aha and halla for *h*
        >
        > p.76:
        > 1 tengwa
        > quesse ( internal explanation for its transcription with *q* together with *qu*, "as occasionally by Aelfwine", owning to the close resemblance of *q* with quesse)
        >
        > p.82:
        > 2 tengwar
        > aha and halla in *r* and *l* < *rh*, *lh*
        >
        > p.84:
        > 2 tengwar
        > again as in p.32-49 the two tengwar coded 19 and 1A in the Unicode proposal (here 1A is assigned to *kt* as )

        Three.

        > p.88:
        > 3 tengwar
        > (a) hwesta sindarinwa and halla for *hw* (intial and medial in Parmaquesta)
        > (b) formen with a bar below apparently for *ff*

        Four.


        On 2012-01-01, at 19:19, Ugo wrote:

        > I've forgot to add this to my previous e-mail, these are from CT.

        I have already included these in #328, though they only figure among the "DTS entry drafts", and not among the detailed page-to-page enumeration.

        --
        grüess
        mach
      • Ugo
        ... than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2. ... question: How should we count these? They are not tengwar autographs, seeing as they are only
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 2, 2012
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          --- In elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, j_mach_wust@... wrote:
          >
          > On 2012-01-01, at 17:54, Ugo wrote:
          >
          > > Hello everyone,
          > > I haven't found any mention here, but there are more tengwar in PE19
          than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2.
          >
          > Thanks for pointing that out! Indeed, this raises an intricate
          question: How should we count these? They are not tengwar autographs,
          seeing as they are only reproduced in Tengwar Annatar characters. Still,
          they come directly from Tolkien's manuscript.

          Indeed that's a good question; they aren't only coming from a Tolkien's
          manuscript, but they seem to be really part of it: the wording needs the
          presence of those tengwar. The question is why the editor chose to use a
          font instead of using a scan version of those tengwar; a possibile
          answer is "for the sake of clarity as it's not possibile to misread them
          in the original manuscript and as the contest it's focused on phonetic
          development rather than script, the whole text gains clarity", however
          in p. 41-43 we find both the font and fac similes. Peraphs we should ask
          Mr. Gilson the reason of its choices both in OP2 and OP1 (to be sure of
          their autorship), but they really seem to be Tolkien's tengwar worth of
          consideration as a unified DTS (25 tengwar) as they're all from the same
          document (OP2) and they all have the same "nature", peraphs with a note
          explaining that they're not fac similes.

          > In any case, there are some more tengwar like these in PE19, at least
          on page 41. When I enumerated the tengwar from page 41 in #328, I only
          counted the autographed tengwar, and not the Annatar tengwar.

          As I've said above, in my opinion they should be counted, after a check
          with Christopher Gilson, maybe highlighting the difference: 21+7

          > > p.88:
          > > 3 tengwar
          > > (a) hwesta sindarinwa and halla for *hw* (intial and medial in
          Parmaquesta)
          > > (b) formen with a bar below apparently for *ff*
          >
          > Four.

          Five then (halla, hwesta sindarinwa, halla+hwesta sindarinwa, formen).

          Ugo
        • Arden R. Smith
          ... As I recall, the general procedure in PE19 was to use scans when the manuscript had clearly written tengwar, but font replacements when it did not, e.g. in
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 2, 2012
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            On Jan 2, 2012, at 6:46 AM, Ugo wrote:

            > Indeed that's a good question; they aren't only coming from a
            > Tolkien's
            > manuscript, but they seem to be really part of it: the wording needs
            > the
            > presence of those tengwar. The question is why the editor chose to
            > use a
            > font instead of using a scan version of those tengwar; a possibile
            > answer is "for the sake of clarity as it's not possibile to misread
            > them
            > in the original manuscript and as the contest it's focused on phonetic
            > development rather than script, the whole text gains clarity", however
            > in p. 41-43 we find both the font and fac similes. Peraphs we should
            > ask
            > Mr. Gilson the reason of its choices both in OP2 and OP1 (to be sure
            > of
            > their autorship), but they really seem to be Tolkien's tengwar worth
            > of
            > consideration as a unified DTS (25 tengwar) as they're all from the
            > same
            > document (OP2) and they all have the same "nature", peraphs with a
            > note
            > explaining that they're not fac similes.
            >
            >

            As I recall, the general procedure in PE19 was to use scans when the
            manuscript had clearly written tengwar, but font replacements when it
            did not, e.g. in rough ball-point or pencil emendations. If you look
            at the footnotes to the sentences containing font replacements, you
            will generally see that this is the case, for example:

            p. 41, n. 76: "This sentence was originally...."
            p. 41, n. 78: "This sentence was altered in red ink from...."
            p. 70, n. 8: "These equivalences were written in green ball-point in
            the margin to the left of the previous sentence...."

            It would have been a good idea to include a note explaining this
            somewhere in the apparatus.


            ***************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
            --Elvish proverb

            ***************************************************





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          • Mans
            ... That is enough to include them: the index is meant to reference the source documents, not published editions. Indeed, a text does not even have to be
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 2, 2012
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              --- In elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, j_mach_wust@... wrote:
              >
              > On 2012-01-01, at 17:54, Ugo wrote:
              >
              > > Hello everyone,
              > > I haven't found any mention here, but there are more tengwar in PE19 than those already highlighted in #329, all from OP2.
              >
              > Thanks for pointing that out! Indeed, this raises an intricate question: How should we count these? They are not tengwar autographs, seeing as they are only reproduced in Tengwar Annatar characters. Still, they come directly from Tolkien's manuscript.

              That is enough to include them: the index is meant to reference the source documents, not published editions. Indeed, a text does not even have to be published - just knowing its existence is reason to index it, as in the case of DTS 82.

              Yours,
              MÃ¥ns
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