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A Bit Late, But Here's My Font

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  • Tencedil
    Oment alassë, Earlier I expressed the hope to release my preliminary Tengwar font at the end of april 2010. Unfortunately it is never a good idea to decide
    Message 1 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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      Oment'alassë,

      Earlier I expressed the hope to release my preliminary Tengwar font
      at the end of april 2010.

      Unfortunately it is never a good idea to decide for a final overhaul at the
      last minute, and apart from that, real life, too, sometimes takes more
      time than previously envisioned :)

      However, though a month late, I just completed the alpha-version of my font.

      It is called Tengwar Tellepsalinnacontar, and you can grab it at
      http://tencedil.basvanhoorn.nl

      You'll also find some documentation and a quick preview there.

      I'm looking forward to your critiques!

      Ná alya,

      -- Tencedil. --
    • j_mach_wust
      ... This is an amazing project. At first, I had troubles to understand what it really was about. I think a central passage for understanding what this is about
      Message 2 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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        --- In #253 of elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, Tencedil wrote:
        > It is called Tengwar Tellepsalinnacontar, and you can grab it at
        > http://tencedil.basvanhoorn.nl

        This is an amazing project. At first, I had troubles to understand what it really was about. I think a central passage for understanding what this is about is the section "ANSI, Unicode etc." from the document "docs.pdf". There, you write: "This font [...] tries to honour the ANSI code mappings as much as possible."

        My first impression was that this is not true since this font obviously very much violates the ANSI standard. Almost every character's shape diverges from the ANSI standard. But then I began to see that it was not your intention to follow the ANSI standard, but to replace every ANSI character by a corresponding tengwar character. So in a certain way, you have expanded the same mapping method that has been used for instance by Michael S. Elliott in the Tengwar Gandalf font.


        Personally, I must admit there are two things I don't like about your project:

        1. You're claiming your font is very different from the Dan-Smithian fonts. I think it equally violating the standards. You write: "If you change only the font of a piece of text, it should still be legible, provided you are familiar with the characters." According to the standards, however, if you change the font, not only should the text remain legible, but it should still be the very same characters. An "o" by any font should spell as "o", and not as hwesta sindarinwa (Dan-Smithian) or as a kind of anna (your font).

        2. Over the years I have become extremely reluctant to inventing new tengwar characters. If I do something about Tolkien's scripts, I believe the only way to assure that other people will not reject it is by studiously attesting that every single part of it is taken directly from Tolkien's own writings.


        Still, I think you have done a great work. These are some good sans-serif tengwar. Your work certainly deserves a very detailed response:


        * You say that the existence of just one reversed consonant dictates that all should be available. However, there is no clear evidence that there is any reversed consonant. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed formen" may just as well be a mere Christopher-Tolkenian glyph variant of hwesta sindarinwa. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed parma" does not really look like a mirrored parma, but rather like the pre-feanorian kw-letter attested in Parma Eldalamberon 16, and Christopher Tolkien indeed used it for kw.

        * If you want to use Tengwar Telcontar, take OpenOffice.org ≥ 3.2 (except for the Mac OS version). OpenOffice is far superior to MS Word with regard to complex scripts.

        * Hehehe, I like your remark that the prevalence of ómatehtar modes is due to the power of the ring! :-) However, it is common knowledge that the original Quenya modes used ómatehtar. Sure, Tolkien wrote that Feanor invented independent vowel letters. But in the very same text ("From Quendi and Eldar, Appendix D" in Vinyar Tengwar #39), Tolkien continues that those independent vowel letters were "mainly used by the Loremasters for special purposes", until in Middle-Earth, the tengwar were used for languages such as Sindarin. On the other hand, I agree with you that the Beleriandic mode is likely to be much more Noldorin than Grey Elven.

        * I think your extrapolation of full vowels based on the Moria Gate inscription cannot stand to critical scrutiny. Since the mode of Beleriand was only developed in Beleriand, there is no reason to assume that it is original quanta sarme. It is rather likely that its o-letter is identical to anna and its e-letter identical to yanta, for once because that is the simpler explanation, and then also because both are attested in other samples where they are much more similar to the "book hand" letters of the Appendix E table. And then, it seems likely that the quanta sarme are now attested in the vowel table of Parma Eldalamberon 18.

        * It is a nice detail that you've included a part of your documentation in tengwar. However, I'd very much advise you not to use that mode (whoever is that "Y. R. R. Tolshier"?). You cannot achieve a reasonable tengwar transcription just by assigning every single Latin letter a single tengwa. It just won't work.


        I sincerely hope I haven't discouraged you. You have written a great font. Keep up with the good work!

        --
        grüess
        mach
      • Tencedil
        Aiya Mach, -- This is an amazing project. [...8
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 3, 2010
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          Aiya Mach,

          --"This is an amazing project. [...8<...] I sincerely hope I haven't
          discouraged you. [...8<...] Personally, I must admit there are two things I
          don't like about your project:"
          --

          Not at all, although I needed some time to digest your information.
          And I /did/ name the alpha font Tellepsalinnacontar ;)

          --"My first impression was that this [...8<...] very much violates the ANSI
          standard. Almost every character's shape diverges from the ANSI standard.
          But then I began to see that it was not your intention to follow the ANSI
          standard, but to replace every ANSI character by a corresponding tengwar
          character. So in a certain way, you have expanded the same mapping method
          that has been used for instance by Michael S. Elliott in the Tengwar Gandalf
          font. [...8<...] According to the standards, however, if you change the
          font, not only should the text remain legible, but it should still be the
          very same characters. An "o" by any font should spell as "o", and not as
          hwesta sindarinwa (Dan-Smithian) or as a kind of anna (your font). An "o"
          by any font should spell as "o", and not as hwesta sindarinwa (Dan-Smithian)
          or as a kind of anna (your font)."
          --

          Actually I did use the Gandalf for a while, but the proportions of that font
          make it nearly impossible to read it at small sizes; I didn't even bother
          to include it in my Tengwar comparison table.

          I disagree when you state that the character should still be the very same.
          Even in the Latin set, a single character can have different shapes. For
          instance Capital A, that can be written as a "circle with a down-right tail"
          or as a "upright triangle with an upwards shifted base line". Or lowercase
          g, which can be a "circle with a down curl" (Arial), or "two circles in
          vertical arrangement connected with a bow" (Times). Although I agree that
          in this case, the shape change is a bit more radical.

          But my "O" character is /not/ a hwesta Sindarinwa or a kind of anna, it /is/
          the "O" character as I see it on the West Gate, at least in the preliminary
          vowel system that I use.

          As I expressed earlier, I'm not always overimpressed by standards. If I
          were Dutch (oh, wait...) I'd say: "Mijn fiets heeft een standaard en dat is
          reuze handig, maar niet als ik wil fietsen*". Unfortunately, this doesn't
          translate well in English (or German, for that matter), as in Dutch the word
          "standaard" means both "standard" and "stand" (or "Standard" and "Ständer").


          --"Over the years I have become extremely reluctant to inventing new tengwar
          characters. If I do something about Tolkien's scripts, I believe the only
          way to assure that other people will not reject it is by studiously
          attesting that every single part of it is taken directly from Tolkien's own
          writings."
          --

          Well, that's a difference in our approaches.
          You guys are scientists; you dissect 'em.
          I'm a gardner, I just grow them.

          Of course I acknowledge that we owe the Middle Earth-history to J.R.R. and
          Christopher Tolkien, who -- in the words of J.R.R. -- discovered it. But
          although my LARPing days are about over (after all, I'm 53 now), I still
          like to get into the spirit of Middle-Earth, and I like to think/pretend
          that it is real history, which makes it feel somewhat like Egyptology (a
          very popular subject when Tolkien started his work, btw). This makes
          Tolkien a kind of Howard Carter.

          Yet if you'd like to know more about ancient Egypt, would you ask Howard
          Carter or Zahi Hawass? The original discoverer does not always have the
          best data.

          So while of course Tengwar are a Tolkien creation, in /spirit/ they're
          Fëanors, and when either Tolkien creates a 3rd or 4th Era sample /in the
          modern 20th century/, that doesn't define how the tengwar have looked in the
          early days /of the Middle Earth Ages/. And of course, in any samples,
          regardless of their historical context, there are always a lot of characters
          missing.

          In our Latin script the same thing happens. Suppose that you were allowed
          to use only those characters on the computer keyboard, that are attested in
          mediaeval incunables...


          --"You say that the existence of just one reversed consonant dictates that
          all should be available. However, there is no clear evidence that there is
          any reversed consonant. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed formen" may
          just as well be a mere Christopher-Tolkenian glyph variant of hwesta
          sindarinwa. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed parma" does not really
          look like a mirrored parma, but rather like the pre-feanorian kw-letter
          attested in Parma Eldalamberon 16, and Christopher Tolkien indeed used it
          for kw."
          --

          Whether anybody ever used them is not the point. Well, maybe a scientist's
          point, but not a typographer's. The characters have been used, so they (and
          their family) should be in the font, if only to be able to write down that
          you should not use them.


          --"If you want to use Tengwar Telcontar, take OpenOffice.org ≥ 3.2
          (except for the Mac OS version). OpenOffice is far superior to MS Word with
          regard to complex scripts."
          --

          Thank you very much for this pointer. I've never really used OpenOffice,
          but in the past days I found this a good program to test the font in
          (although I don't care much for the way the "Insert Symbol" panel closes
          each time you insert a character).

          I noticed that the Telcontar diacritics do indeed work, while the
          Tellepsalinnacontar don't. It seems I still have a lot to learm about
          OpenType (after all, my last font was a Type 1 font, created in Fontographer
          somewhere in the late 80s). So far, I haven't been able to find the proper
          feature tables with either FontCreator or FontLab Studio, and I don't yet
          know enough about OpenType features to be able to use VOLT.

          JOHAN or MÅNS: if you read this, I'd be very grateful if you could teach me
          how you got the diacritics right in the Telcontar E000-E07F block; I'd like
          to be compatible.


          --"I think your extrapolation of full vowels based on the Moria Gate
          inscription cannot stand to critical scrutiny. Since the mode of Beleriand
          was only developed in Beleriand, there is no reason to assume that it is
          original quanta sarme. It is rather likely that its o-letter is identical to
          anna and its e-letter identical to yanta, for once because that is the
          simpler explanation, and then also because both are attested in other
          samples where they are much more similar to the "book hand" letters of the
          Appendix E table. And then, it seems likely that the quanta sarme are now
          attested in the vowel table of Parma Eldalamberon 18."
          --

          There's at least one of my problems: I've never actually studied Elvish,
          I've just used Tengwar. I don't have access to the Parma Eldalamberon
          editions, or any other samples for that matter, and unfortunately at the
          moment I don't have the funds to buy them either. The best documentation I
          have in my posession is a battered copy of Jim Allan's book. I wish I had
          access to more samples, especially by Fëanor and Celebrimbor, but of course
          they're copyrighted and I know that you cannot scan and mail them off-list,
          so I will not ask you to.

          But I agree with you that the vowels need more work. Yet I do not think
          that they are just a mode where vowels are assigned to "regular" tengwar; if
          vowels are indeed tengwar in their own right, they should have their own
          internal consistency and systematicity. As I see it, consonants are defined
          by the telqui (that define the sound as being finite; the bar is indeed a
          kind of point in time, or the leg on which the sound stands) and modulated
          by the luvar.

          Vowels, however, do not need to be finite; as long as you have breath, you
          can sustain the sound. Vowels don't stand, they hover. Any form of telco
          would therefore be inappropriate; that's how I reached my luvar-only
          approach for vowels. Neither anna nor yanta would do.


          --"I think your extrapolation of full vowels based on the Moria Gate
          inscription cannot stand to critical scrutiny. Since the mode of Beleriand
          was only developed in Beleriand, there is no reason to assume that it is
          original quanta sarme. And then, it seems likely that the quanta sarme are
          now attested in the vowel table of Parma Eldalamberon 18."
          --

          H'm. Beleriand was, in the 1st Age, the /only/ place where the Ñoldor lived
          (after the Exile, that is), and them I regard as the keepers of the Tengwar.
          So I really don't think that there was any region other than Beleriand,
          where the full Tengwar tradition, including the Quanta Sarme, was honoured
          (not even Aman!). In other words, in that Age, /all/ Tengwar modes must
          have been Beleriand. But I'd really, really like to see that vowel table;
          it's not my /intention/ to step on any toes, I just don't have much
          documentation and have to work largely from (racial) memory.


          --"Tolkien continues that those independent vowel letters were "mainly used
          by the Loremasters for special purposes", until in Middle-Earth, the tengwar
          were used for languages such as Sindarin."
          --

          Yes.
          If Celebrimbor wasn't a lore-master, then who was?
          BTW, originally I planned to call my font "Tengwar Ingolmion" :)


          --"It is a nice detail that you've included a part of your documentation in
          tengwar. However, I'd very much advise you not to use that mode (whoever is
          that "Y. R. R. Tolshier"?). You cannot achieve a reasonable tengwar
          transcription just by assigning every single Latin letter a single tengwa.
          It just won't work."
          --

          I needed to include a font sample, that's why the introduction is both in
          Latin and Tengwar characters. In either case, however, the /language/ is
          English. So it's not a Quenya or Sindarin mode, it's a US International
          mode, and it's not perfect. The Latin script isn't perfect for English
          either, if only because /any/ script requires a language to be "spellable".

          A language where "I need to plough, though I do not know how" is pronouced
          the way it is and where "booster" and "worcester" are pronounced virtually
          the same (they're just a lip-touch apart), simply cannot be represented
          correctly in any keyboard-compatible script. It's not the script that is
          unreasonable, it's the language (provided English is a language at all).

          As for the "Y.R.R. Tolshier" -- Tollo! you know full well that you apply
          another mode here than the author intended ;P


          --"I sincerely hope I haven't discouraged you. Keep up with the good work!"
          --

          Again, not at all; you really helped me think about some things here.
          Sorry I took so much time to answer.

          Ná alya,

          -- Tencedil. --



          _____
          * "My bicycle has a standaard and that's very useful, except when I want to
          ride it."
        • David Hedges
          which makes it feel somewhat like Egyptology (a very popular subject when Tolkien started his work, btw). This makes Tolkien a kind of Howard Carter. Yet if
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 3, 2010
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            "which makes it feel somewhat like Egyptology (a
            very popular subject when Tolkien started his work, btw). This makes
            Tolkien a kind of Howard Carter.

            Yet if you'd like to know more about ancient Egypt, would you ask Howard
            Carter or Zahi Hawass? The original discoverer does not always have the
            best data."

            But Tolkien is more like Howard Carter, Jean-Francois Champollion, and
            both Cheops and Rameses II's Chief Scribe all rolled into one ....which
            trumps Zahi Hawass (=Sally Kennett Chairman of the Tolkien Society)



            Tencedil wrote:
            >
            >
            > Aiya Mach,
            >
            > --"This is an amazing project. [...8<...] I sincerely hope I haven't
            > discouraged you. [...8<...] Personally, I must admit there are two
            > things I
            > don't like about your project:"
            > --
            >
            > Not at all, although I needed some time to digest your information.
            > And I /did/ name the alpha font Tellepsalinnacontar ;)
            >
            > --"My first impression was that this [...8<...] very much violates the
            > ANSI
            > standard. Almost every character's shape diverges from the ANSI standard.
            > But then I began to see that it was not your intention to follow the ANSI
            > standard, but to replace every ANSI character by a corresponding tengwar
            > character. So in a certain way, you have expanded the same mapping method
            > that has been used for instance by Michael S. Elliott in the Tengwar
            > Gandalf
            > font. [...8<...] According to the standards, however, if you change the
            > font, not only should the text remain legible, but it should still be the
            > very same characters. An "o" by any font should spell as "o", and not as
            > hwesta sindarinwa (Dan-Smithian) or as a kind of anna (your font). An "o"
            > by any font should spell as "o", and not as hwesta sindarinwa
            > (Dan-Smithian)
            > or as a kind of anna (your font)."
            > --
            >
            > Actually I did use the Gandalf for a while, but the proportions of
            > that font
            > make it nearly impossible to read it at small sizes; I didn't even bother
            > to include it in my Tengwar comparison table.
            >
            > I disagree when you state that the character should still be the very
            > same.
            > Even in the Latin set, a single character can have different shapes. For
            > instance Capital A, that can be written as a "circle with a down-right
            > tail"
            > or as a "upright triangle with an upwards shifted base line". Or
            > lowercase
            > g, which can be a "circle with a down curl" (Arial), or "two circles in
            > vertical arrangement connected with a bow" (Times). Although I agree that
            > in this case, the shape change is a bit more radical.
            >
            > But my "O" character is /not/ a hwesta Sindarinwa or a kind of anna,
            > it /is/
            > the "O" character as I see it on the West Gate, at least in the
            > preliminary
            > vowel system that I use.
            >
            > As I expressed earlier, I'm not always overimpressed by standards. If I
            > were Dutch (oh, wait...) I'd say: "Mijn fiets heeft een standaard en
            > dat is
            > reuze handig, maar niet als ik wil fietsen*". Unfortunately, this doesn't
            > translate well in English (or German, for that matter), as in Dutch
            > the word
            > "standaard" means both "standard" and "stand" (or "Standard" and
            > "Ständer").
            >
            > --"Over the years I have become extremely reluctant to inventing new
            > tengwar
            > characters. If I do something about Tolkien's scripts, I believe the only
            > way to assure that other people will not reject it is by studiously
            > attesting that every single part of it is taken directly from
            > Tolkien's own
            > writings."
            > --
            >
            > Well, that's a difference in our approaches.
            > You guys are scientists; you dissect 'em.
            > I'm a gardner, I just grow them.
            >
            > Of course I acknowledge that we owe the Middle Earth-history to J.R.R.
            > and
            > Christopher Tolkien, who -- in the words of J.R.R. -- discovered it. But
            > although my LARPing days are about over (after all, I'm 53 now), I still
            > like to get into the spirit of Middle-Earth, and I like to think/pretend
            > that it is real history, which makes it feel somewhat like Egyptology (a
            > very popular subject when Tolkien started his work, btw). This makes
            > Tolkien a kind of Howard Carter.
            >
            > Yet if you'd like to know more about ancient Egypt, would you ask Howard
            > Carter or Zahi Hawass? The original discoverer does not always have the
            > best data.
            >
            > So while of course Tengwar are a Tolkien creation, in /spirit/ they're
            > Fëanors, and when either Tolkien creates a 3rd or 4th Era sample /in the
            > modern 20th century/, that doesn't define how the tengwar have looked
            > in the
            > early days /of the Middle Earth Ages/. And of course, in any samples,
            > regardless of their historical context, there are always a lot of
            > characters
            > missing.
            >
            > In our Latin script the same thing happens. Suppose that you were allowed
            > to use only those characters on the computer keyboard, that are
            > attested in
            > mediaeval incunables...
            >
            > --"You say that the existence of just one reversed consonant dictates
            > that
            > all should be available. However, there is no clear evidence that
            > there is
            > any reversed consonant. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed
            > formen" may
            > just as well be a mere Christopher-Tolkenian glyph variant of hwesta
            > sindarinwa. Christopher Tolkien's alleged "reversed parma" does not
            > really
            > look like a mirrored parma, but rather like the pre-feanorian kw-letter
            > attested in Parma Eldalamberon 16, and Christopher Tolkien indeed used it
            > for kw."
            > --
            >
            > Whether anybody ever used them is not the point. Well, maybe a
            > scientist's
            > point, but not a typographer's. The characters have been used, so they
            > (and
            > their family) should be in the font, if only to be able to write down
            > that
            > you should not use them.
            >
            > --"If you want to use Tengwar Telcontar, take OpenOffice.org ≥ 3.2
            > (except for the Mac OS version). OpenOffice is far superior to MS Word
            > with
            > regard to complex scripts."
            > --
            >
            > Thank you very much for this pointer. I've never really used OpenOffice,
            > but in the past days I found this a good program to test the font in
            > (although I don't care much for the way the "Insert Symbol" panel closes
            > each time you insert a character).
            >
            > I noticed that the Telcontar diacritics do indeed work, while the
            > Tellepsalinnacontar don't. It seems I still have a lot to learm about
            > OpenType (after all, my last font was a Type 1 font, created in
            > Fontographer
            > somewhere in the late 80s). So far, I haven't been able to find the
            > proper
            > feature tables with either FontCreator or FontLab Studio, and I don't yet
            > know enough about OpenType features to be able to use VOLT.
            >
            > JOHAN or MÅNS: if you read this, I'd be very grateful if you could
            > teach me
            > how you got the diacritics right in the Telcontar E000-E07F block; I'd
            > like
            > to be compatible.
            >
            > --"I think your extrapolation of full vowels based on the Moria Gate
            > inscription cannot stand to critical scrutiny. Since the mode of
            > Beleriand
            > was only developed in Beleriand, there is no reason to assume that it is
            > original quanta sarme. It is rather likely that its o-letter is
            > identical to
            > anna and its e-letter identical to yanta, for once because that is the
            > simpler explanation, and then also because both are attested in other
            > samples where they are much more similar to the "book hand" letters of
            > the
            > Appendix E table. And then, it seems likely that the quanta sarme are now
            > attested in the vowel table of Parma Eldalamberon 18."
            > --
            >
            > There's at least one of my problems: I've never actually studied Elvish,
            > I've just used Tengwar. I don't have access to the Parma Eldalamberon
            > editions, or any other samples for that matter, and unfortunately at the
            > moment I don't have the funds to buy them either. The best
            > documentation I
            > have in my posession is a battered copy of Jim Allan's book. I wish I had
            > access to more samples, especially by Fëanor and Celebrimbor, but of
            > course
            > they're copyrighted and I know that you cannot scan and mail them
            > off-list,
            > so I will not ask you to.
            >
            > But I agree with you that the vowels need more work. Yet I do not think
            > that they are just a mode where vowels are assigned to "regular"
            > tengwar; if
            > vowels are indeed tengwar in their own right, they should have their own
            > internal consistency and systematicity. As I see it, consonants are
            > defined
            > by the telqui (that define the sound as being finite; the bar is indeed a
            > kind of point in time, or the leg on which the sound stands) and
            > modulated
            > by the luvar.
            >
            > Vowels, however, do not need to be finite; as long as you have breath,
            > you
            > can sustain the sound. Vowels don't stand, they hover. Any form of telco
            > would therefore be inappropriate; that's how I reached my luvar-only
            > approach for vowels. Neither anna nor yanta would do.
            >
            > --"I think your extrapolation of full vowels based on the Moria Gate
            > inscription cannot stand to critical scrutiny. Since the mode of
            > Beleriand
            > was only developed in Beleriand, there is no reason to assume that it is
            > original quanta sarme. And then, it seems likely that the quanta sarme
            > are
            > now attested in the vowel table of Parma Eldalamberon 18."
            > --
            >
            > H'm. Beleriand was, in the 1st Age, the /only/ place where the Ñoldor
            > lived
            > (after the Exile, that is), and them I regard as the keepers of the
            > Tengwar.
            > So I really don't think that there was any region other than Beleriand,
            > where the full Tengwar tradition, including the Quanta Sarme, was
            > honoured
            > (not even Aman!). In other words, in that Age, /all/ Tengwar modes must
            > have been Beleriand. But I'd really, really like to see that vowel table;
            > it's not my /intention/ to step on any toes, I just don't have much
            > documentation and have to work largely from (racial) memory.
            >
            > --"Tolkien continues that those independent vowel letters were "mainly
            > used
            > by the Loremasters for special purposes", until in Middle-Earth, the
            > tengwar
            > were used for languages such as Sindarin."
            > --
            >
            > Yes.
            > If Celebrimbor wasn't a lore-master, then who was?
            > BTW, originally I planned to call my font "Tengwar Ingolmion" :)
            >
            > --"It is a nice detail that you've included a part of your
            > documentation in
            > tengwar. However, I'd very much advise you not to use that mode
            > (whoever is
            > that "Y. R. R. Tolshier"?). You cannot achieve a reasonable tengwar
            > transcription just by assigning every single Latin letter a single
            > tengwa.
            > It just won't work."
            > --
            >
            > I needed to include a font sample, that's why the introduction is both in
            > Latin and Tengwar characters. In either case, however, the /language/ is
            > English. So it's not a Quenya or Sindarin mode, it's a US International
            > mode, and it's not perfect. The Latin script isn't perfect for English
            > either, if only because /any/ script requires a language to be
            > "spellable".
            >
            > A language where "I need to plough, though I do not know how" is
            > pronouced
            > the way it is and where "booster" and "worcester" are pronounced
            > virtually
            > the same (they're just a lip-touch apart), simply cannot be represented
            > correctly in any keyboard-compatible script. It's not the script that is
            > unreasonable, it's the language (provided English is a language at all).
            >
            > As for the "Y.R.R. Tolshier" -- Tollo! you know full well that you apply
            > another mode here than the author intended ;P
            >
            > --"I sincerely hope I haven't discouraged you. Keep up with the good
            > work!"
            > --
            >
            > Again, not at all; you really helped me think about some things here.
            > Sorry I took so much time to answer.
            >
            > Ná alya,
            >
            > -- Tencedil. --
            >
            > _____
            > * "My bicycle has a standaard and that's very useful, except when I
            > want to
            > ride it."
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • j_mach_wust
            ... This is not a matter of agreements or disagreements, but of the standards specifications. The glyphs you ve used are by no means characters of the Latin
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 3, 2010
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              --- In #255 elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, Tencedil wrote:

              > I disagree when you state that the character should still be the
              > very same. Even in the Latin set, a single character can have
              > different shapes.

              This is not a matter of agreements or disagreements, but of the standards' specifications. The glyphs you've used are by no means characters of the Latin script, but of a totally different script (the tengwar). Therefore, they violate the standards (ANSI and Unicode). I'm sure that if you search the Unicode definitions, you will soon find a fair definition of what a character of a script is, taking into account glyph variants such as you've mentioned.

              Every tengwar font that does not assign the tengwar to the Personal Use Area necessarily violates the standards. This does not mean they are bad fonts. Personally, I prefer Personal Use Area tengwar fonts, but I know that these fonts cannot fit all needs. While the tengwar are not accepted in Unicode, there will be tengwar fonts that violate the standards. That's just how it is -- like you've said yourself:

              > "Mijn fiets heeft een standaard en dat is reuze handig, maar niet
              > als ik wil fietsen*".

              :-) I like that!


              > Whether anybody ever used them is not the point. Well, maybe a
              > scientist's point, but not a typographer's. The characters have
              > been used, so they (and their family) should be in the font, if
              > only to be able to write down that you should not use them.

              My point was that mirrored characters have *not* been used (so they and their family should *not* be in the font). While the peculiar kw-character has been used, it is *not* a mirrored character. The mirrored formen has never been attested by J. R. R. Tolkien anyway.


              > I noticed that the Telcontar diacritics do indeed work, while the
              > Tellepsalinnacontar don't. It seems I still have a lot to learm
              > about OpenType (after all, my last font was a Type 1 font, created
              > in Fontographer somewhere in the late 80s). So far, I haven't been
              > able to find the proper feature tables with either FontCreator or
              > FontLab Studio, and I don't yet know enough about OpenType features
              > to be able to use VOLT.
              >
              > JOHAN or MÅNS: if you read this, I'd be very grateful if you could
              > teach me how you got the diacritics right in the Telcontar
              > E000-E07F block; I'd like to be compatible.

              I'm not Johan or Måns, but I know how their fonts work: Måns' Tengwar Eldamar does not use any special features, but just uses zero-width combining glyphs for the Personal Use Area tehtar (like the tehtar in a Dan-Smithian tengwar font). This allows the tehtar to be placed over the preceding character, but their exact position will not be adjusted (since there is only one of them, and not four like in a Dan-Smithian tengwar font).

              Johan's Tengwar Telcontar uses a smart font technology. However, it is not OpenType, but SIL Graphite. Graphite is more flexible than OpenType, and it is entirely free, but it is not widely supported (yet), with the notable exceptions of OpenOffice.org since version 3.2 (except for the Mac OS builds) and of XeTeX. The main advantage of Graphite over OpenType is that complex OpenType features (as would be required for the selection of the right tehtar) are usually tied to the requirement of specific standardized scripts. You cannot use them in the Personal Use Area.

              Graphite is quite complex (especially if you've never written any code before), but it's all free and there is good documentation, including a tutorial, at the SIL Graphite website:
              http://scripts.sil.org/RenderingGraphite

              If you don't want to get into Graphite, I'd recommend you'd use the same method Måns did, by making the Personal Use Area tehtar zero-width combining signs. The dotted circles are not required at all. I guess Johan only used them so you'd notice at once that an application is not capable of properly displaying Tengwar Telcontar.


              > There's at least one of my problems: I've never actually studied
              > Elvish, I've just used Tengwar.

              I never studied "Elvish" either, only the tengwar.


              > But I agree with you that the vowels need more work. Yet I do not
              > think that they are just a mode where vowels are assigned to
              > "regular" tengwar;

              While it is an interesting idea that no Beleriandic vowel letters were "regular" tengwar, it does not hold against the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien. He explicitly identified the Beleriandic tengwa for the vowel Y with a "regular" tengwa, that is, with silme nuquerna (Appendix E of the Lord of the Rings). Furthermore, Tolkien said that vowel tengwar were commonly taken from the sixth grade (óre-tyelle) which includes the tengwa anna, and he implies that yanta was used as a vowel (also Appendix E). And while the Moria Gate inscription has pecualiar curly glyph shapes, there is a draft where J. R. R. Tolkien repeated the inscription in his normal tengwar hand, and where the signs for E and O look just like his regular yanta and anna tengwar (DTS 29). They look the same, so it is only consistent to assume that they really are the same (we know the Y-tengwa that looks the same as silme nuquern really is the same as silme nuquerna).

              Take a step back and consider the evidence for your idea that no Beleriandic vowel letters were "regular" tengwar. You cannot back up that idea with evidence from Tolkien's writings, but I can defy it with evidence from Tolkien's writings. Your idea won't hold a judgement. Of course, you are free to stick with it, but don't expect anybody to follow you.


              > if vowels are indeed tengwar in their own right,
              > they should have their own internal consistency and systematicity.
              > As I see it, consonants are defined by the telqui (that define the
              > sound as being finite; the bar is indeed a kind of point in time,
              > or the leg on which the sound stands) and modulated by the luvar.
              >
              > Vowels, however, do not need to be finite; as long as you have
              > breath, you can sustain the sound. Vowels don't stand, they
              > hover.

              This is not the definition of a vowel, but the definition of a "continuant". Continuants include not only the vowels, but also certain consonants, especially nasals (M, N, etc.) and the approximants (W, [j], L, etc.). All these sounds share the feature that they are not "finite", as you've put it, but "hover". As we well know, the tengwar that express nasals do have a telco. Therefore, your theory that continuants cannot have telcor is proven wrong.


              > H'm. Beleriand was, in the 1st Age, the /only/ place where the
              > Ñoldor lived (after the Exile, that is), and them I regard as the
              > keepers of the Tengwar. So I really don't think that there was any
              > region other than Beleriand, where the full Tengwar tradition,
              > including the Quanta Sarme, was honoured (not even Aman!). In
              > other words, in that Age, /all/ Tengwar modes must have been
              > Beleriand.

              For one, some Noldor did not go into the Exile. And then, Feanor invented the tengwar and the "quanta sarme" before the Exile. The Beleriandic mode was only developed after the Exile.


              > But I'd really, really like to see that vowel table;

              Of course, I cannot give you a copy, but nothing keeps me from describing that Quendian Vowels, called "Qenderin Ómandi" (Parma Eldalamberon 18, p. 32). I'm using the common tengwar names to make the description easier, though they are not used in that document:


              The short vowels, called "sintar":

              i. - short carrier (like in the Beleriandic mode)
              e. - long carrier
              a. - osse (the "c"-shaped tengwa, like in the Beleriandic mode)
              o. - mirrored "c"-shape
              u. - úre


              The long vowels, called "andar":

              Same as the short vowels, but with andaith above (acute tehta). There are two special long vowels, open long e and open long o, said to probably originating from older "ae" and "oe". For their Latin transcription, Tolkien uses the ae-digraph and the o-letter with a hook below respectively, both with a macron above (as in the transcriptions of all long vowels):

              (long open e) - osse with dot inside and andaith above
              (long open o) - osse with hook below and andaith above


              The diphthongs, called "okamnar":

              ei ai oi ui - respective letters with the sign for "following y" above (two dots tehta)

              ou au eu iu. - respective letters with the sign for "following w" above (modified left curl or "reversed tilde" tehta)


              While these Quendian vowels are not called "quanta sarme", it seems we can identify them. Tolkien said in a note that this notation was "only used in grammatical treatises". This matches the assertion that "quanta sarme" was used "by the Loremasters for special purposes" (Vinyar Tengwar 39, p. 8). Furthermore, some of it is the same as in the Beleriandic mode. This matches the assertion that "quanta sarme" was used when "later in Middle-earth" the tengwar were used for other languages such as Sindarin.


              > I needed to include a font sample, that's why the introduction is
              > both in Latin and Tengwar characters. In either case, however, the
              > /language/ is English. So it's not a Quenya or Sindarin mode, it's
              > a US International mode, and it's not perfect. The Latin script
              > isn't perfect for English either, if only because /any/ script
              > requires a language to be "spellable".

              It seems to me you are confusing writing with indicating the exact pronunciation. Indicating the exact pronunciation is not the point of writing (you can use the IPA for that). The Latin alphabet works perfectly well for English, even though it sometimes falls short of indicating the exact pronunciation. Tolkien's English tengwar modes also work perfectly well for English (some even indicate the exact pronunciation).


              > As for the "Y.R.R. Tolshier" -- Tollo! you know full well that you
              > apply another mode here than the author intended ;P

              I only read your tengwar (which I wouldn't call a "mode", but a simple English respelling) according to my best knowledge of Tolkien's tengwar modes, especially of his English tengwar modes. These English tengwar modes are well attested, if only somewhat difficult to overlook since there are different ones. However, every one of them is remarkably consistent with itself and with the general principles of the tengwar. It is perfectly possible to write English according to one of Tolkien's English modes.

              Even if you would say that you are *not* writing according to Tolkien, I'd still object to your "mode" because it violates the general principle of shape-sound correspondance that is inherent to the tengwar. There is no mode where the tengwa aha can possibly represent a K (unless suule were T and formen were P etc.).

              --
              grüess
              mach
            • congruwer
              ... Ouch! Painfully bad example there. Yes, he s made some name in the past in fending off pyramidiots, but it later emerged that his primary perspective is
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 3, 2010
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                >Zahi Hawass
                Ouch! Painfully bad example there.
                Yes, he's made some name in the past in fending off pyramidiots, but it later emerged that his primary perspective is not so much scientific as it is traditionalist and political.
                Comparing anyone to him is an insult, especially since Hawass has a horrible character to top it off.
              • congruwer
                Though I can see where you re coming from, and realise there might be cases where it s useful to lie to the operating system about the encoding your font uses,
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 3, 2010
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                  Though I can see where you're coming from, and realise there might be cases where it's useful to lie to the operating system about the encoding your font uses, that doesn't change the fact that the font doesn't actually use ANSI, nor any of the Windows code pages, just as much as Zapf Dingbats doesn't, since none of those code pages contain tengwar. (Historical note: most western Windows code pages derive from a proto-ANSI which was an extension from ASCII where previously unassigned positions where assigned new glyphs. The ASCII encoding is quite explicit about what the glyphs in the table mean: `alphabetic letters A through Z' http://wps.com/projects/codes/X3.4-1963/page7.JPG This was even from before the introduction of lower case into the encoding, so it's been in there since the beginning.)
                  >Mijn fiets heeft een standaard en dat is reuze handig, maar niet als ik wil fietsen.
                  That drew a laugh, but it's a logical fallacy. How shall I name it - argument from punning?

                  Anyway, on a somewhat related note, I still have quite some fonts using their own idiosyncratic encodings and I'm wondering if it would be possible to sort of convert these fonts. I imagine glyphs will have to be moved to their appropriate locations and graphite tables will have to be added.
                • Mans
                  ... I m afraid I cannot help you there, since Tengwar Telcontar is Johan s accomplishment alone. * * * I took the liberty of proofreading the documentation
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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                    --- In elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, "Tencedil" <ikke@...> wrote:
                    > JOHAN or MÅNS: if you read this, I'd be very grateful if you could teach me
                    > how you got the diacritics right in the Telcontar E000-E07F block; I'd like
                    > to be compatible.


                    I'm afraid I cannot help you there, since Tengwar Telcontar is Johan's accomplishment alone.


                    * * *


                    I took the liberty of "proofreading" the documentation for your font. My comments follow.


                    About docs.pdf:


                    p.1 - I don't have any comments on the text in Tengwar, since it is not in a mode I recognize.


                    p.3 - "I wanted a font that merges seamlessly with "normal" book-like typefaces."

                    A minor detail, but as '"normal" book-like typefaces' I regard serif fonts like Times, Garamond, Century etc. I think Tellepsalinnacontar is more likely to 'merge seamlessly' with headline or display fonts such as Futura or Arial (which is what you use in the documentation).


                    - "Måns Björkman's Parmaïte"

                    If you are to use a diaeresis in 'Parmaite', put it on the _e_. The letters _ai_ constitute a diphthong, but _aï_ is rather read as two separate vowels.


                    p.4 - "Tengwar are however intended as a universal script"

                    It would be nice to see a reference to a source that supports this assertion.


                    - "the 2nd and 3rd era."

                    I assume that by "era" you mean that which Tolkien calls an "Age". A better term, perhaps?


                    - "... as well as many unsupported tengwa. The documented tengwa ..."

                    > _tengwar_ in both cases.


                    - "Then again, I can't get the Telcontar block work properly in my MS Word processor anyway, whether I use Telcontar or my own font."

                    This is because Telcontar uses smart font technology, whereas Word uses stupid font technology.


                    p.5 - "Yet it is well possible that I made a misteka here or there,"

                    I assume this one was intentional? ;)


                    p.6 - "Lambar (Consonants)"

                    _Lambar_ means 'tongues'. Attested terms for 'consonants' are _návear_ and _patacar_ (the latter allegedly coined by Feanor).


                    - "nuquelambar"

                    I take it this term is based on _nuquerna_? That word seems to mean 'turned upside-down', which does not fit your "mirrored consonants". Besides, the building-blocks of _nuquerna_ are _nu-quer-na_ 'under-turn-ed', so a more likely derivative would be _nuquellambar_ (_rl_ becoming _ll_ as in _casalli_ < _casar-li_).


                    p.7 - "Composite lambar are also very rare; only codepoints E883 () and E88B () seem to be attested, although in what context I'm not entirely sure. Again, however, the existence of one proves the existence of all."

                    These are in fact ligatures of <aha>+<tinco>, <hwesta>+<tinco>. They occur in the Old English documents of Arundel Lowdham (if you can't get your hands on _Sauron Defeated_, look in the documentation to Dan Smith's fonts for a description of the mode).
                    Other ligatures are certainly feasible, although whether they should have separate codepoints is a different question.


                    p.8 - "the West Gate of Moria, the only "Mode of Beleriand" sample"

                    See http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_beleriand.htm for more samples of the Mode of Beleriand.


                    - "Sindarin, the Common Speak at the time"

                    More usual terms are _common speech_ or, perhaps less confusing, _lingua franca_.


                    - "But where both Dan Smith and Måns Björkman suggest that the Mode of Beleriand, used on the West Gate, merely be a "Grey Elven Mode",  I beg to differ: Celebrimbor hardly was a Grey Elf, but a full-bred Ñoldo instead, and Beleriand, except for the Ossiriand region in the south-east, wasn't Grey Elven territory."

                    I am not sure I ever said that the mode of Beleriand was 'merely a Grey Elven Mode', certainly not with any slighting in mind. What is clear, however, is that the mode of Beleriand is designed for the Grey-elven _language_, also called Sindarin. Grey-elven was indeed the "common speech" of the Noldor in Beleriand and Eregion (even the full-breeds).

                    Incidentally, what do the tengwar signify? "Toló!"? "Utlú!"?


                    - "My personal conviction is that the so-called "Mode of Beleriand" is, or at least largely resembles, the original tengwar used by Fëanor and his kin,"

                    I completely agree with you here. Most of the evidence seems to point in this direction.


                    - "and was still used by his grandson when he dwelled in Nargothrond. In that case, "Mode of Nargothrond" would be a more appropriate label ..."

                    Here I do not follow you. Why would the use of the mode of Beleriand in Nargothrond render the term "mode of Beleriand" inappropriate? You know that Nargothrond is _in_ Beleriand, right?


                    - "From a archeo-linguistic point of view and considering the above, I deem the West Gate inscription of far more importance than the One Ring or any later derivations of it."

                    Do you mean in the sense that the mode of Beleriand was at least six thousand years old at the end of the Third Age, and the ring-inscription little more than four thousand? In that case I agree with you. It is also possible that the inscription on the One Ring represents a type of modes that is younger than the mode of Beleriand and the Classical mode.


                    p.9 - "Anómëar"
                    I cannot analyse this term.


                    - "Documentation of the full vowels is scarce, so scarce in fact that Måns Björkman states that "if any samples of the mode have been preserved they have not been published, and we do not know how it looked like". This is a bit pessimistic, however: all major vowels are featured on the West Gate."

                    This is comparing apples and oranges. In the quoted passage I am talking about Feanor's Quanta Sarme -- all of it, including the consonants -- not about tengwar representing vowels in general.

                    We know for a fact that different full modes use different tengwar to represent vowels. It would be foolish to assume that the mode of Beleriand happen to correspond precisely to the Quanta Sarme in this regard.


                    p.10 - "Yantar"

                    Why are additional characters called 'bridges'?


                    - "telqui"

                    The "accepted nomenclature" is _telcor_. Although a possible arhaic variant, *_telqui_ is unattested.


                    p.11 - "This is also an all-purpose zero. It is not, as some scholars state, the "duodecimal number twelve"—such a character does not exist, any more than does a "decimal number 10"."

                    You are of course just as welcome to ignore whatever you like in the sources as you are to invent a "quadrovigesimal zero", but just because it does not fit with our preconceived notion of how a numeral system should be constructed, we cannot claim that the sign for 12 does not exist. It does.


                    p.14 - "Emtpty character"
                    > 'Empty'


                    p.15 - "Tixar"
                    The attested word is _tixe_ 'dot, tiny mark, point'. The plural ought to be _tixi_.


                    p.17 - "Ñaltar"
                    I cannot analyse this term.


                    About ansiref.pdf

                    p.1 - "This is the exclamation mark most common in the Tolkien corpus."

                    In fact, that exclamation mark occurs in only one published document, whereas the Latin exclamation mark "!" occurs in at least three. Of course, if you only count marks that specific to the Tengwar, it is the most common -- it is the *only* one.


                    p.2 - "Left square bracket
                    A character like this one appears in the Tolkien corpus, although it is mostly used as a normal parenthesis "("."

                    I think this description fits better with the "Right square bracket", which is closer to the attested form.


                    p.4 - "Pillcrow"

                    > 'Pilcrow'


                    //Måns
                  • Mans
                    ... I temporarily forgot what seems to be an exclamation mark in Bilbo s contract, DTS 71. This mark occurs once, while the more well-known mark occurs three
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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                      I wrote:
                      >
                      > About ansiref.pdf
                      >
                      > p.1 - "This is the exclamation mark most common in the Tolkien corpus."
                      >
                      > In fact, that exclamation mark occurs in only one published document, whereas the Latin exclamation mark "!" occurs in at least three. Of course, if you only count marks that specific to the Tengwar, it is the most common -- it is the *only* one.

                      I temporarily forgot what seems to be an exclamation mark in Bilbo's contract, DTS 71. This mark occurs once, while the more well-known mark occurs three times in Namárie (DTS 20). So if we're splitting hairs, and ignore the use of Latin exclamation marks, we might actually say that "This is the exclamation mark most common in the Tolkien corpus."

                      Yours,
                      Måns
                    • Harm J. Schelhaas
                      ... A better term in an English text, which this is, yes, of course. But in the Dutch translations of Tolkien’s works, Age was translated as Era (in the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 5, 2010
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                        Op Za, 5 juni, 2010 3:58 pm schreef elfscript2@yahoogroups.com:
                        >
                        > ________________________________________________________________________
                        > 1a. Re: A Bit Late, But Here's My Font
                        > Posted by: "Mans" at@... mansbjorkman
                        > Date: Sat Jun 5, 2010 4:43 am ((PDT))
                        >
                        >
                        > .....
                        >
                        >
                        > I took the liberty of "proofreading" the documentation for your font. My comments
                        > follow.
                        >
                        >
                        > About docs.pdf:
                        >
                        >
                        > .....
                        >
                        >
                        > - "the 2nd and 3rd era."
                        >
                        >
                        > I assume that by "era" you mean that which Tolkien calls an "Age". A better term,
                        > perhaps?
                        >
                        >
                        > .....
                        >
                        >
                        > //Måns
                        >

                        A better term in an English text, which this is, yes, of course.

                        But in the Dutch translations of Tolkien’s works, "Age" was translated as "Era" (in
                        the original translation of LotR even in the now archaic spelling "Aera"). Probably
                        that’s where Tencedil’s usage comes from.

                        Otherwise, I agree with what both you and Mach have been writing, even though I am
                        somewhat fascinated by Tencedil’s work.

                        Greetings,
                        Harm Schelhaas
                      • Tencedil
                        Aiya Mach, Thanks for the extensive reply. -- I m not Johan or Måns, but I know how their fonts work: Måns Tengwar Eldamar does not use any special
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                          Aiya Mach,

                          Thanks for the extensive reply.

                          --"I'm not Johan or Måns, but I know how their fonts work: Måns' Tengwar
                          Eldamar does not use any special features, but just uses zero-width
                          combining glyphs for the Personal Use Area tehtar (like the tehtar in a
                          Dan-Smithian tengwar font). Johan's Tengwar Telcontar uses a smart font
                          technology. However, it is not OpenType, but SIL Graphite. "
                          --

                          Thanks. The zero-width diacritics are already there, so that's not a
                          problem. But the Telcontar-compatibility will have to wait a bit, then. I
                          did take a peek at Graphite, but I'm a bit busy atm (I usually am), and at
                          this point I don't want to install a Unix-box. For the moment I'll just put
                          backshifted non-spacing diacritics there.


                          --"This is not the definition of a vowel, but the definition of a
                          "continuant". Continuants include not only the vowels, but also certain
                          consonants, especially nasals (M, N, etc.) and the approximants (W, [j], L,
                          etc.). All these sounds share the feature that they are not "finite", as
                          you've put it, but "hover". As we well know, the tengwar that express nasals
                          do have a telco. Therefore, your theory that continuants cannot have telcor
                          is proven wrong."
                          --

                          You are right, of course. I simplified a bit. But there still is a
                          difference between vowels and (other) continuants in the way the sounds are
                          modulated: vowels by adapting the shape of the mouth, consonants with tongue
                          and lips, etc. The L/R, H/J/CH and S/Z sound complexes are also
                          continuants,
                          but consonantal (if that's a word), and in my view shouldn't be expressed as
                          regular consonants either.

                          It's something I'm still working on, but this is more of a winter project,
                          so it's on the shelf for now.

                          Thanks very much for the vowel descriptions. Unfortunately they still
                          largely depend on diacritics, so for my own goals their use is limited, but
                          it did make me realize that I was a bit over-hasty when adapting codepoints
                          E02F-E033 in the Telcontar mapping. I'll correct this in the next release,
                          especially codepoints E031/E032.


                          --"I only read your tengwar (which I wouldn't call a "mode", but a simple
                          English respelling)"
                          --

                          Actually, it's just a bunch of characters written according to a set of
                          rules. I don't know whether that should be called "mode" or "spelling" --
                          in my mind, there's not much difference.


                          --"Even if you would say that you are *not* writing according to Tolkien,
                          I'd still object to your "mode" because it violates the general principle of
                          shape-sound correspondance that is inherent to the tengwar. There is no mode
                          where the tengwa aha can possibly represent a K (unless suule were T and
                          formen were P etc.)."
                          --

                          I'm still working on a document about my shape-sound correlation, but it is
                          there. As for the "K", the K-sound is already covered by calma, which I
                          mapped to "C" (but of course never has the "S" value -- I use esse for the
                          C-cedilla).

                          In my private convention, a raised stem indicates an outgoing air flow, so
                          harma should read more accurately as "kh". In the same spirit, my thule
                          stands for "th" (thorn), and formen for "ph", although I mapped that one to
                          "f" in the ANSI block.

                          Thanks again.

                          Ná alya,

                          -- Tencedil. --
                        • Tencedil
                          Aiya Måns, -- I took the liberty of proofreading the documentation for your font. -- Thank you, I appreciate this very much. -- p.1 - I don t have any
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                            Aiya Måns,

                            --"I took the liberty of "proofreading" the documentation for your font."
                            --

                            Thank you, I appreciate this very much.


                            --"p.1 - I don't have any comments on the text in Tengwar, since it is not
                            in a mode I recognize."
                            --

                            It's largely a copy-paste-change font version of the English introduction.
                            I'd like to add a "real" Tengwar mode as a third column, creating a kind of
                            Rosetta Stone.


                            --"A minor detail, but as '"normal" book-like typefaces' I regard serif
                            fonts like Times, Garamond, Century etc. I think Tellepsalinnacontar is more
                            likely to 'merge seamlessly' with headline or display fonts such as Futura
                            or Arial (which is what you use in the documentation)."
                            --

                            Correct. I started out with a Times-type font, but decided to do a
                            sans-serif one first to get the basics right. But the Times New Roman (ná
                            Romen) is in the pipeline.


                            --"If you are to use a diaeresis in 'Parmaite', put it on the _e_. The
                            letters _ai_ constitute a diphthong, but _aï_ is rather read as two separate
                            vowels."
                            --

                            I knew that. A bit of an automatism here; in Dutch, diaereses are almost
                            always used to separate vowels and seldom as a sound modifier as in Quenya
                            or German.



                            --"_Lambar_ means 'tongues'. Attested terms for 'consonants' are _návear_
                            and _patacar_ (the latter allegedly coined by Feanor)."
                            --

                            However, návear and patacar include the additional consonants. I really
                            wanted a term that specifically indicated the use of tongue and lips. After
                            studying Helge Fauskanger's wordlists, I didn't find anything to represent
                            "lips", but I did find "lambetengwi", which I eroded a bit so it would
                            combine more elegant with sundo/nuque/tatya. But there may be better
                            options; I've considered "temar", too. How would you feel about that?


                            --"'nuquelambar' - I take it this term is based on _nuquerna_? That word
                            seems to mean 'turned upside-down', which does not fit your "mirrored
                            consonants". Besides, the building-blocks of _nuquerna_ are _nu-quer-na_
                            'under-turn-ed', so a more likely derivative would be _nuquellambar_ (_rl_
                            becoming _ll_ as in _casalli_ < _casar-li_)."
                            --

                            Again, this was the best I could do with Fauskanger. I couldn't find a
                            better term for "mirror" of "reversed". But your explanation makes sense.
                            Could I just loose the "nu", so as to end up with "quellambar" or
                            "quernatemar"?



                            --"See http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_beleriand.htm for more samples of the
                            Mode of Beleriand."
                            --

                            I have your site local and studied it closely. Unfortunately, I could only
                            find /references/ to other MoB samples, not the samples themselves (except
                            for your "Aníron teithad" sample).


                            --"I am not sure I ever said that the mode of Beleriand was 'merely a Grey
                            Elven Mode', certainly not with any slighting in mind."
                            --

                            The "merely" was of my doing, not yours or Dan Smith's. But in your
                            introduction you /do/ state: "The name of this Grey-elven Tengwar mode is
                            given in the caption to DTS 8".

                            But the mode language-bound not race-bound. So while it /is/ a Sindarin
                            mode, it is /not/ a Grey Elven-mode. And if Elwë hadn't banned the use of
                            Quenya, it probably even wouldn't have been Sindarin.


                            --"Incidentally, what do the tengwar signify? "Toló!"? "Utlú!"?"
                            --

                            It's an attempt at "tolyo", which in Quenya doesn't sound as coarse as in
                            other languages :)


                            --"Here I do not follow you. Why would the use of the mode of Beleriand in
                            Nargothrond render the term "mode of Beleriand" inappropriate? You know that
                            Nargothrond is _in_ Beleriand, right?"
                            --

                            Yes.

                            But at the time, /all/ tengwar that were used in Middle-Earth were used in
                            Beleriand and nowhere else (Aman I don't count as Middle-Earth). Yet the
                            "Mode of Beleriand" was not the only mode around. It's quite likely that in
                            more artistic Gondolin a more stylized, hence diacritical mode was used, and
                            Gondolin, too, lay in Beleriand, as did Doriath where tengwar were hardly
                            used at all, except perhaps by the Lady Galadriel.

                            "Mode of Beleriand" is not inappropriate, just not as accurate.


                            --"Do you mean in the sense that the mode of Beleriand was at least six
                            thousand years old at the end of the Third Age, and the ring-inscription
                            little more than four thousand? In that case I agree with you. It is also
                            possible that the inscription on the One Ring represents a type of modes
                            that is younger than the mode of Beleriand and the Classical mode."
                            --

                            Yes.


                            --"p.9 - "Anómëar" I cannot analyse this term."
                            --

                            "an-" in the second meaning according to Fauskanger, the intensive or
                            superlative prefix, carrying the idea of "very" or "most". I translated
                            this into "full vowels", but "actual" or "real" would probably be better.


                            --"p 10 - "Yantar" Why are additional characters called 'bridges'?"
                            --

                            You're right. This should be "yantyar", eroded from "yantyatengwar".



                            --" "telqui" The "accepted nomenclature" is _telcor_. Although a possible
                            arhaic variant, *_telqui_ is unattested."
                            --

                            Again I based this on Fauskangers wordlist. She only gives "telqui" as
                            plural form, but I'm hapy to use telcor, if that's more accepted.


                            --" "This is also an all-purpose zero. It is not, as some scholars state,
                            the "duodecimal number twelve"-such a character does not exist, any more
                            than does a "decimal number 10"."
                            You are of course just as welcome to ignore whatever you like in the sources
                            as you are to invent a "quadrovigesimal zero", but just because it does not
                            fit with our preconceived notion of how a numeral system should be
                            constructed, we cannot claim that the sign for 12 does not exist. It does."
                            --

                            You're missing the point. Of course the sign for 12 should exist. My font
                            has in fact two of them, the regular twelve at codepoint EA0C, and the
                            somewhat less precise duodecimal zero/dozen at codepoint EA19.

                            The point is, however, that there is no /duodecimal/ twelve. In any base-N
                            numerical system, the numerals go from zero to N-1.

                            So in octal, there's the numerals 0 to 7, but no numeral 8.
                            In decimal, there's 0 to 9, but not a numeral 10.
                            In duodecimal, there's 0 to 11, but no 12.
                            In hexadecimal there's 0 to 15, but no 16 (but along the way there is that
                            12).

                            That's not a preconceived notion, it is inherent to counting, unless you
                            would want to scratch the zero and count from 1 to 12 instead of 0 to 11.
                            If you can only count to twelve, then you can't have 13 numerals to do it
                            with.

                            In this light, my "duodecimal zero" is an attempt to have your cake and eat
                            it to, since by itself, te represents 12 (or mathematically "a number
                            between 10 and 15, rounded to 12"), whereas in combination with other
                            numerals, it takes on the role of zero.


                            --"The attested word is _tixe_ 'dot, tiny mark, point'. The plural ought to
                            be _tixi_."
                            --

                            Thanks. I'm always a bit unsure with -ë forms.



                            --"p.17 - "Ñaltar" I cannot analyse this term."
                            --

                            From Ñalta, reflection, signifying that these code blocks do not contain
                            actual glyphs, but are merely, erm, a reflection of the glyphs in the PUA.


                            Thanks again, also for all those little errata that didn't mention here.

                            Ná alya,

                            -- Tencedil. --
                          • Tencedil
                            Aiya Congruwer, -- Comparing anyone to him is an insult, especially since Hawass has a horrible character to top it off. -- I m inclined to agree. Luckily I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                              Aiya Congruwer,

                              --"Comparing anyone to him is an insult, especially since Hawass has a
                              horrible character to top it off."
                              --

                              I'm inclined to agree. Luckily I compared Tolkien to Carter rather than
                              Hawass.

                              Alas! we can't all be Robert Bauval

                              Ná alya
                            • Tencedil
                              Aiya David, Would you ask Howard Carter or Zahi Hawass? -- But Tolkien is more like Howard Carter, Jean-Francois Champollion, and both Cheops and Rameses II s
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                                Aiya David,

                                Would you ask Howard Carter or Zahi Hawass?

                                --"But Tolkien is more like Howard Carter, Jean-Francois Champollion, and
                                both Cheops and Rameses II's Chief Scribe all rolled into one ....which
                                trumps Zahi Hawass (=Sally Kennett Chairman of the Tolkien Society)"
                                --

                                Frankly, I'd ask both, but trust neither.

                                Ná alya
                              • Tencedil
                                Aiya Harm, -- in the Dutch translations of Tolkien s works, Age was translated as Era (in the original translation of LotR even in the now archaic spelling
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                                  Aiya Harm,

                                  --"in the Dutch translations of Tolkien's works, "Age" was translated as
                                  "Era" (in the original translation of LotR even in the now archaic spelling
                                  "Aera"). Probably that's where Tencedil's usage comes from."
                                  --

                                  You got it spot on.

                                  It was indeed still "Aera" when I first read LotR. Quite a puzzling word
                                  for a 10yo who tried to fathom what aeronautics had to do with dwarves
                                  and hobbits :)

                                  Ná alya
                                • Mans
                                  ... I guess I like témar better, in that case. BTW one word for lips in Quenya is _peu_ (dual of _pé_). ... But it is not the *consonants* that are
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 7, 2010
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                                    --- In elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, "Tencedil" <ikke@...> wrote:
                                    > --"_Lambar_ means 'tongues'. Attested terms for 'consonants' are _návear_
                                    > and _patacar_ (the latter allegedly coined by Feanor)."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > However, návear and patacar include the additional consonants. I really
                                    > wanted a term that specifically indicated the use of tongue and lips. After
                                    > studying Helge Fauskanger's wordlists, I didn't find anything to represent
                                    > "lips", but I did find "lambetengwi", which I eroded a bit so it would
                                    > combine more elegant with sundo/nuque/tatya. But there may be better
                                    > options; I've considered "temar", too. How would you feel about that?

                                    I guess I like "témar" better, in that case. BTW one word for 'lips' in Quenya is _peu_ (dual of _pé_).


                                    > --"'nuquelambar' - I take it this term is based on _nuquerna_? That word
                                    > seems to mean 'turned upside-down', which does not fit your "mirrored
                                    > consonants". Besides, the building-blocks of _nuquerna_ are _nu-quer-na_
                                    > 'under-turn-ed', so a more likely derivative would be _nuquellambar_ (_rl_
                                    > becoming _ll_ as in _casalli_ < _casar-li_)."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > Again, this was the best I could do with Fauskanger. I couldn't find a
                                    > better term for "mirror" of "reversed". But your explanation makes sense.
                                    > Could I just loose the "nu", so as to end up with "quellambar" or
                                    > "quernatemar"?

                                    But it is not the *consonants* that are turned, it's the *tengwar* that represent them, right? So perhaps _quertengwar_ would do.


                                    > --"See http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_beleriand.htm for more samples of the
                                    > Mode of Beleriand."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > I have your site local and studied it closely. Unfortunately, I could only
                                    > find /references/ to other MoB samples, not the samples themselves (except
                                    > for your "Aníron teithad" sample).

                                    OK, well, that one is not Tolkien, of course. But anyway, the wording in the documentation suggests that there are no other samples than Celebrimbor's inscription.


                                    > --"I am not sure I ever said that the mode of Beleriand was 'merely a Grey
                                    > Elven Mode', certainly not with any slighting in mind."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > The "merely" was of my doing, not yours or Dan Smith's. But in your
                                    > introduction you /do/ state: "The name of this Grey-elven Tengwar mode is
                                    > given in the caption to DTS 8".
                                    >
                                    > But the mode language-bound not race-bound. So while it /is/ a Sindarin
                                    > mode, it is /not/ a Grey Elven-mode.

                                    I'm afraid you misunderstand me. Grey-elven *is* Sindarin, literally. "Grey-elven" is another word for the language.


                                    > And if Elwë hadn't banned the use of
                                    > Quenya, it probably even wouldn't have been Sindarin.

                                    You mean the mode of Beleriand would have been used for Quenya?



                                    > --"Here I do not follow you. Why would the use of the mode of Beleriand in
                                    > Nargothrond render the term "mode of Beleriand" inappropriate? You know that
                                    > Nargothrond is _in_ Beleriand, right?"
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > Yes.
                                    >
                                    > But at the time, /all/ tengwar that were used in Middle-Earth were used in
                                    > Beleriand and nowhere else (Aman I don't count as Middle-Earth). Yet the
                                    > "Mode of Beleriand" was not the only mode around. It's quite likely that in
                                    > more artistic Gondolin a more stylized, hence diacritical mode was used, and
                                    > Gondolin, too, lay in Beleriand, as did Doriath where tengwar were hardly
                                    > used at all, except perhaps by the Lady Galadriel.

                                    What evidence is there that there were other modes around?


                                    > "Mode of Beleriand" is not inappropriate, just not as accurate.

                                    Well, "mode of Nargothrond" might very well have been *too* precise. There were other Sindarin and Noldorin (and mixed) settlements in Beleriand beside Doriath.


                                    > --"p.9 - "Anómëar" I cannot analyse this term."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > "an-" in the second meaning according to Fauskanger, the intensive or
                                    > superlative prefix, carrying the idea of "very" or "most". I translated
                                    > this into "full vowels", but "actual" or "real" would probably be better.

                                    Since _quanta sarme_ is the Quenya term for "full writing", _quante ómear_ is perhaps suitable for "full vowels".



                                    > --"p 10 - "Yantar" Why are additional characters called 'bridges'?"
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > You're right. This should be "yantyar", eroded from "yantyatengwar".

                                    *_Yantyar_ "additions" -- fair enough.



                                    > --" "telqui" The "accepted nomenclature" is _telcor_. Although a possible
                                    > arhaic variant, *_telqui_ is unattested."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > Again I based this on Fauskangers wordlist. She only gives "telqui" as
                                    > plural form, but I'm hapy to use telcor, if that's more accepted.

                                    Here I must correct myself. As it turns out, _telqui_ actually is attested -- though the regular plural would certainly be *_telcor_. (Helge Fauskanger is a "he", BTW.)



                                    > [...] just because it does not
                                    > fit with our preconceived notion of how a numeral system should be
                                    > constructed, we cannot claim that the sign for 12 does not exist. It does."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > You're missing the point. [...]
                                    >
                                    > The point is, however, that there is no /duodecimal/ twelve. In any base-N
                                    > numerical system, the numerals go from zero to N-1.
                                    >
                                    > [...]
                                    > If you can only count to twelve, then you can't have 13 numerals to do it
                                    > with.

                                    I understand your point, and I agree that in normal arithmetics a numeral 12 does not fit into a duodecimal system. Nevertheless, this is what Christopher Tolkien wrote on the subject in 1982:

                                    "Where a duodecimal system was required for arithmetical purposes, or for denoting Dwarvish numerals, the dots or line were placed beneath the figures (if used). The figures [10] [11] were then used for ten and eleven, while [12] [alt-12] could be used for twelve."

                                    (In the above, [10] and [11] are the "mirrored <silme> and <esse>", while [12] is a circle and [alt-12] is a circle with a tail.)

                                    Obviously there were some situations when a numeral 12 was used in a duodecimal environment. I think we should be open to the possibility that such use would occur (hence my remark about "preconceived notion").



                                    > --"p.17 - "Ñaltar" I cannot analyse this term."
                                    > --
                                    >
                                    > From Ñalta, reflection, signifying that these code blocks do not contain
                                    > actual glyphs, but are merely, erm, a reflection of the glyphs in the PUA.

                                    OK, although the full definition of _ñalta_ is "radiance, glittering reflection" (thus not "mirror-image").



                                    > Thanks again, also for all those little errata that didn't mention here.

                                    You're welcome!



                                    Yours,
                                    Måns
                                  • congruwer
                                    Yes, but when one reads Zahi Hawass (=Sally Kennett I think one can be excused for thinking what did she do to deserve that? Anyway, of course all these
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 9, 2010
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                                      Yes, but when one reads "Zahi Hawass (=Sally Kennett" I think one can be excused for thinking "what did she do to deserve that?"
                                      Anyway, of course all these discussions are just in good spirit. Cheers!
                                    • congruwer
                                      ... Would the diacritics appear in their correct location, even without Graphite and is the latter only needed to do the fancy stuff, or is Graphite necessary
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 9, 2010
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                                        > Thanks. The zero-width diacritics are already there, so that's not a
                                        > problem. But the Telcontar-compatibility will have to wait a bit, then. I
                                        > did take a peek at Graphite, but I'm a bit busy atm (I usually am), and at
                                        > this point I don't want to install a Unix-box. For the moment I'll just put
                                        > backshifted non-spacing diacritics there.
                                        Would the diacritics appear in their correct location, even without Graphite and is the latter only needed to do the fancy stuff, or is Graphite necessary even for nice positioning of tehtar?
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