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Re: [elfscript2] Re: New LaTeX package for Tolkienian scripts

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  • Benct Philip Jonsson
    ... Yes we do. Read Appendix E: # CH is only used to represent the sound heard in # bach (in German or Welsh), not that in English # church. Except at
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 1, 2009
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      On 2009-05-30 j_mach_wust wrote:
      > I'm not saying you should go into this in too much
      > detail. I'm saying that this sentence is inaccurate.
      > Westron speaker would say SH instead of HY, not instead
      > of KH. We don't know what they'd say instead of KH. Maybe
      > H or K.
      >

      Yes we do. Read Appendix E:

      # CH is only used to represent the sound heard in
      # bach (in German or Welsh), not that in English
      # church. Except at the end of words and before t
      # this sound, was weakened to h in the speech of
      # Gondor, and that change has been recognized in
      # a few names, such as Rohan, Rohirrim. (Imrahil
      # is a Númenorean name.)

      Thus, apparently Westron speakers generally could,
      and did, pronounce "KH"; i.e. it was a phoneme in
      the language. Even in Gondor speakers could and
      did pronounce it; it had only become restricted in
      terms of in which positions in the word it could
      occur, having in their speech merged with "H" in
      most positions.

      Nothing strange there: IIRC there are German
      varieties where "ICH" and "SCH" have merged but
      "ACH" is still occuring as before. There are also
      varieties where intervocalic "ACH" is becoming
      "H", naturally enough since intervocalic "H" is
      very restricted in occurrence in modern
      German, so that this change would cause few if any
      homonymies to arise. The only thing one has to
      imagine is a variety where both these things
      happen.


      BP 8^)>
      --
      Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
      A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
      __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
      \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
      / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
      / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
      /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
      Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
      ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
      || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
    • j_mach_wust
      ... You re certainly right. I only remembered that Gondorians replaced medial KH by H, but I didn t think on that this obviously means they had KH. I m not
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 2009
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        --- In #131 of elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

        > Thus, apparently Westron speakers generally could,
        > and did, pronounce "KH"; i.e. it was a phoneme in
        > the language. Even in Gondor speakers could and
        > did pronounce it; it had only become restricted in
        > terms of in which positions in the word it could
        > occur, having in their speech merged with "H" in
        > most positions.

        You're certainly right. I only remembered that Gondorians replaced medial KH by H, but I didn't think on that this obviously means they had KH.


        I'm not sure whether there really are German varieties that replace medial KH by H. Medial H is really very marginal in German. The only word I can think of that has medial H is the onomatopoeion "Uhu" 'eagle owl'. Except from that, it only occurs in compound words such as "Baumhaus" 'tree[beam]-house' or "behalten" 'keep [behold]', and in numerous words where it functions as a mute syllable separator, for instance in "ich gehe" 'I go', "ich sehe" 'I see' (in that latter word, it is etymologically justified, but equally mute as in the first one).

        The merger of HY (the CH sound of the word "ich") into SH (sch) is common in many Middle Germany regions. In the southwest, there is no HY at all, especially in Swiss dialects, all CH being velar, at least in the local dialects, if not in the local standard language.

        ---
        grüess
        mach
      • Ariel Barton
        ... I ll have to take your word for it; I haven t got most of those samples. Now that I think about it, it makes sense that a general use mode would want to
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 3, 2009
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          > \Quenyagen
          >
          > Concerning "general use" Quenya, we have quite solid evidence that calmatéma
          > is a palatal series, not a k-series, and that quessetéma is a k-series, not
          > a qu-series.

          I'll have to take your word for it; I haven't got most of those samples.

          Now that I think about it, it makes sense that a "general use" mode
          would want to have some possible way to transcribe Khuzdul or Adûnaic
          names.

          I'll correct \Quenyagen in the next update of tolkienfonts. Do you
          want me to email you an improved copy once I've got it?

          > Furthermore, in DTS 58 Tolkien states explicitly that the same "general use"
          > can be used for both Quenya and Sindarin, and implicitly for English, too,
          > because he provides an English "general use" sample word (Rivendell).
          >
          > DTS 58 also implies that the tengwar-tehtar order of the "general use" may
          > vary because there are samples of either order. This is confirmed by DTS 38
          > where the tehtar are placed on the following signs, as can be observed by
          > the presence of the short carrier at the end of the words "sínome",
          > "hildinya", "metta" and by its absence at the beginning of the word "ambar"
          > -- if the tehtar were placed on the preceding signs, it would be the other
          > way around.

          I've spent so much time thinking about the technical aspects of all
          this that it's really nonintuitive to think of a mode with tehtar on
          the previous tehtar as being ``the same as'' a mode with tehtar on the
          following tehtar. I see what you mean, but it's still strange.

          >> "If you don't speak German, Westron speakers often substituted {sh}
          >> for {kh}"---is aimed at people who are about as linguistically
          >> clueless as I am, so I don't think I want to go into this in too
          >> much detail.
          >
          > I'm not saying you should go into this in too much detail. I'm saying that
          > this sentence is inaccurate. Westron speaker would say SH instead of HY, not
          > instead of KH. We don't know what they'd say instead of KH. Maybe H or K.

          Right. I read the bit about substituting sh for hy, which is the h in
          ht, which is pronounced as cht, and got it mixed up with the ei-for-é
          footnote. I should check Appendix E more carefully. I'll correct or
          delete that line.

          -Ariel
        • Benct Philip Jonsson
          ... The snag is that while _aht, oht, uht_ are indeed AKHT, OKHT, UKHT , _eht, iht_ are EHYT, IHYT , or, for Westron native speakers, ESHT, ISHT . This
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 4, 2009
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            On 2009-06-04 Ariel Barton wrote:
            > Right. I read the bit about substituting sh for hy, which
            > is the h in ht, which is pronounced as cht, and got it
            > mixed up with the ei-for-é footnote. I should check
            > Appendix E more carefully. I'll correct or delete that
            > line.
            >

            The snag is that while _aht, oht, uht_ are indeed
            "AKHT, OKHT, UKHT", _eht, iht_ are "EHYT, IHYT",
            or, for Westron native speakers, "ESHT, ISHT".
            This should probably not influence the spelling
            however: it would be harma+tinco (or very possibly
            the harma+tinco ligature of the Lowdham fragment)
            in all cases, since in this position the distinction
            between "H" and "HY" is neutralized; which sound is
            heard is determined by the preceding vowel.

            BP 8^)>
            --
            Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
            A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
            __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
            \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
            / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
            / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Roccondil\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
            /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
            Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
            ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
            || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
          • Ariel Barton
            Hello, I ve made some revisions to my tolkienfonts package. The new version is at
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 3, 2010
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              Hello,

              I've made some revisions to my tolkienfonts package. The new version is at
              http://sites.google.com/site/knittexlatex/Home/tolkienfonts.zip?attredirects=0&d=1
              I was wondering if you'd like to take a look at it before I upload the new
              version to CTAN.

              -Ariel Barton

              On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:52 AM, j_mach_wust <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Ariel
              >
              > Thanks a lot for your suggestion of \rlap{,} -- that really does the job!
              >
              > \Quenyagen
              >
              > Concerning "general use" Quenya, we have quite solid evidence that
              > calmatéma is a palatal series, not a k-series, and that quessetéma is a
              > k-series, not a qu-series. The evidence for calmatéma as a palatal series
              > is:
              >
              > * DTS 38 noldo for NY,
              > * DTS 46 anna for Y,
              > * DTS 72 anna for Y.
              >
              > The evidence for quessetéma as a k-series is:
              >
              > * DTS 46 quesse + w-tehta for QU,
              > * DTS 64 quesse for C.
              >
              > There is no conflicting evidence.
              >
              > Furthermore, in DTS 58 Tolkien states explicitly that the same "general
              > use" can be used for both Quenya and Sindarin, and implicitly for English,
              > too, because he provides an English "general use" sample word (Rivendell).
              >
              > DTS 58 also implies that the tengwar-tehtar order of the "general use" may
              > vary because there are samples of either order. This is confirmed by DTS 38
              > where the tehtar are placed on the following signs, as can be observed by
              > the presence of the short carrier at the end of the words "sínome",
              > "hildinya", "metta" and by its absence at the beginning of the word "ambar"
              > -- if the tehtar were placed on the preceding signs, it would be the other
              > way around.
              >
              >
              > > "If you don't speak German, Westron speakers often substituted {sh}
              > > for {kh}"---is aimed at people who are about as linguistically
              > > clueless as I am, so I don't think I want to go into this in too
              > > much detail.
              >
              > I'm not saying you should go into this in too much detail. I'm saying that
              > this sentence is inaccurate. Westron speaker would say SH instead of HY, not
              > instead of KH. We don't know what they'd say instead of KH. Maybe H or K.
              >
              >
              > > So I'd really rather use úre than the same tengwa as w, attested or
              > > not.
              > ...
              >
              > > If the elfscript consensus really is "in the next revision, change
              > > \Gondor to overload vala", I can do that, but I don't really want
              > > to.
              >
              > If there is any such thing as an elfscript consensus, then I'd guess this
              > consensus would be not to depart from the attested samples. In the English
              > "general use" texts, the only attested tengwa for the u-glide in diphthongs
              > such as <ou> is vala, not úre.
              >
              > ---
              > grüess
              > mach
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • j_mach_wust
              ... Hi Ariel Congratulations for your work. There are many improvements. I like the new Mazarbul tengwar mode. The sunrune font looks very nice; it is simple
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 7, 2010
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                --- In #259 of elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, Ariel Barton wrote:
                > I've made some revisions to my tolkienfonts package. The new
                > version is at http://sites.google.com/site/knittexlatex/Home/tolkienfonts.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

                Hi Ariel

                Congratulations for your work. There are many improvements. I like
                the new "Mazarbul" tengwar mode. The sunrune font looks very nice; it
                is simple and yet well-proportioned.

                Here again comments on tolkienfontsdoc.pdf (I hope I am not repeating
                myself too much):



                p. 8: While there is no "mode-mixing" in the King's Letters, there is
                in DTS 51.

                p. 11: About Quenya TS: In PE18, p. 70, we have for the first time an
                attested specimen of this in the word "Mestanyatse". OK, this is
                neither written in the "classical" Quenya mode nor in the "general
                use" of the tengwar, but in a different Quenya mode. In the vowels,
                it is similar to the "Etymologies" mode (VT46 and VT47), except that
                it uses anna for O – it is an interesting new variant of full writing
                where A is ommitted. In the consonants, it is more similar to the
                "classical" mode, except that it uses súle for ST. For now, I think
                it has to remain a defective mode, since we don't know yet how to
                write F (if súle represents ST, formen wouldn't represent F – but
                what would it represent?). But the interesting thing is the s-hook of
                TS: It is not the regular hook known for instance from DTS 4/5
                "hobbits", but an almost vertical line that in the end slightly turns
                to the right (almost as if a short carrier were attached to the end
                of the lúva). Of course, your package cannot fix that since you're
                only using third-party tengwar fonts.

                p. 14: "called" is an inappropriate sample word for the `long a'
                sound. Better use "fast" or "hah" instead (the least ambiguous sample
                words would be "father" and "spa" – I really believe the spelling of
                "called" with vilya must be a mistake since this word is pronounced
                with `long o' in British English, not with `long a').

                p. 14: "across" is not a good sample word for the `long o' sound.
                Better use "caught" instead (the least ambiguous sample word would be
                "law" – "across" is not normally pronounced with `long o' any more in
                current British English).

                p. 14: I think the words "he" and "to" are inappropriate sample words
                for the sounds of `short i' and `short u'. I believe they only ought
                to be spelled this way when unstressed – however, since you're using
                them as sample words, they are necessarily stressed (so they ought to
                be spelled as `long i' or `long u'). I am basing this on an analog
                word where we find both stressed and unstressed instances: The word
                "you" in DTS 17 and 18. There we can observe that when stressed, the
                word is spelled with `long u', but when unstressed, with `short u'
                (we're lucky it's poetry, so we can tell for sure where the stress
                is).

                p. 14: I think the word "him" is an inappropriate sample word for the
                schwa. I think this is a mistake. From spellings of words such as
                "mariner" or "guilded", we can tell that Tolkien would not reduce
                unstressed "i" to schwa. From other spellings such as DTS 18
                "draggled", "cannot", DTS 23 "here", we can tell he sometimes forgot
                the dot above.

                p. 14: Vala + andaith should not be green. It is attested in the
                first lines of DTS 18 (though the rest of DTS 18 uses vala +
                `following w').

                p. 14: I still don't like your rendering of the phonemic mode. That
                concerns a number of things:

                * I believe that Tolkien's phonemic mode is most faithfully
                transcribed by using a phonemic transcription that matches the
                tengwar he has chosen. Indeed, such a phonemic transcription is very
                close to the phonemic transcription systems that have been used by
                the phoneticists Bloch & Trager or Trager & Smith, as seen for
                instance on page 69 in Adam Brown: Pronunciation Models, Singapore
                1991: http://books.google.com/books?id=Su8TD5bv5bEC&pg=PA69. This
                means there are seven basic vowels: a, e, i, o, u, V, (as in "hut") @
                (schwa). All other vowels or diphthongs are formed from these basic
                vowels, mostly by appending -y (ay, ey, iy, oy) or -w (aw, ou, uw).
                In the third set of expanded vowels, Tolkien's analysis differs from
                the analysis of Bloch & Trager or Trager & Smith: While they analyze
                the third set as compositions with appending -h (ah, oh), Tolkien has
                analyzed them as long vowels (á/aa, ó/oo, and in some modes also
                é/ee, í/ii, ú/uu, Ŕ/RR). All in all, this system is very consistent
                and simple (simpler as the IPA system that requires much more signs).
                I think it's a shame this consistency should be abandoned. Two
                examples: Some of Tolkien's modes use `u + following w', others `long
                u'. In your transcription, when I type "uu", I don't get `long u',
                but `u + following w', which I'd more naturally expect to be "uw"
                (because it obviously is `u + following w'). Second example: In
                Tolkien's system, the `following y' after vowels is the very same as
                the `following y' after consonants, but in your transcription, the
                latter is "y", but the former is "i" or alternatively some
                idiosyncratic letters based on traditional English orthography, not
                on pronunciation (as in "ie, ae, ee").

                * I don't think it is helpful that you've filled up all the empty
                cells in the vowel table. I have heard that there are varieties of
                English that have "iw". I have not heard of varieties of English that
                have "ew" or "uy", let alone any of the combinations with V at all.

                * I think there is no basis for the inclusion of a yanta series.

                * I don't think there is any basis for a dot-above row: There are two
                distinct uses of the dot above, and both uses are restricted to
                certain vowel letters: On vilya and on the short carrier, the dot
                above provides a special meaning (they are different from plain vilya
                and from plain short carrier); on osse and on the long carrier, the
                dot above does not provide a special meaning but only helps to tell
                them apart from surrounding signs (they are the same as plain osse or
                plain long carrier). Additionally, the representation you have chosen
                (with "-a") suggests that there is a regular relation to "a", even
                though there is no such relation.

                * I concede that it might be desirable to differentiate between the
                two glyph variants of the andaith (though personally, I still
                wouldn't do it). However, the representation you have chosen for the
                curly glyph variant (with "-o") suggests that there is a regular
                relation to "o", even though there is no such relation. And it seems
                you haven't included a differentiation between the two glyph variants
                of the andaith in the case of óre.

                p. 15: How come you say: "Long vowels are often ignored"? All of the
                three samples "Lúthien" (which you've misspelled, by the way: the
                "ie" is spelled as "i" and "e", not as "ay" – seems like your own
                method rendering of the phonemic mode has deceived you ;-), "use" and
                "who" are spelled with a `long u' which is not ignored at all, but
                very consistently represented.

                p. 22: I still wouldn't deliberately depart from Tolkien's example of
                using vala for the "u-glide". Úre is only attested in modes that put
                the tehtar over the preceding tengwar.

                p. 22, footnote 15: Technically, none of these are diphthongs (or all
                are). A diphthong is a special type of sound. Here, you are speaking
                about letters, so the term "vowel digraph" might be more appropriate.
                OK, sometimes vowel digraphs are called "dipthongs" as well, but in
                that case, a combination such as EA is also a "diphthong".

                p. 27, 29: I believe that vilya cannot represent W in the "general
                use" of the tengwar. This would violate the téma consistency. W is
                not a k-series sound, but either a P-series sound or a KW-series
                sound.

                p. 30: With regard to "Mazarbul" WH: The only texts with rómen for W
                that have an instance of WH use the "extended" rómen (I used to call
                it a "halla-rómen ligature" but that's not the only interpretation):
                DTS 50 and 51.

                --
                grüess
                mach
              • Mans
                ... Possibly SP. Although that sound does not occur in Quenya, several of the pre-Feanorian writing systems include letters for SP. Another possibilty
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 7, 2010
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                  --- In elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, "j_mach_wust" <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:
                  > p. 11: About Quenya TS: In PE18, p. 70, we have for the first time an
                  > attested specimen of this in the word "Mestanyatse". OK, this is
                  > neither written in the "classical" Quenya mode nor in the "general
                  > use" of the tengwar, but in a different Quenya mode. In the vowels,
                  > it is similar to the "Etymologies" mode (VT46 and VT47), except that
                  > it uses anna for O � it is an interesting new variant of full writing
                  > where A is ommitted. In the consonants, it is more similar to the
                  > "classical" mode, except that it uses s�le for ST. For now, I think
                  > it has to remain a defective mode, since we don't know yet how to
                  > write F (if s�le represents ST, formen wouldn't represent F � but
                  > what would it represent?).


                  Possibly SP. Although that sound does not occur in Quenya, several of the "pre-Feanorian" writing systems include letters for SP.

                  Another possibilty actually is F, since Common Eldarin SP developed into F in Quenya.

                  I devote some time to a related question with regard to the "Etymologies mode" in my article here:
                  http://books.google.se/books?id=vSCKWYbL63oC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false (p.90-91).
                • Ariel Barton
                  Thanks for proofreading this for me. p. 8: While there is no mode-mixing in the King s Letters, there is ... I ll get Sauron Defeated from the library and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 7, 2010
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                    Thanks for proofreading this for me.


                    p. 8: While there is no "mode-mixing" in the King's Letters, there is
                    > in DTS 51.
                    >

                    I'll get "Sauron Defeated" from the library and look at this, and edit page
                    8 accordingly.


                    > p. 22: I still wouldn't deliberately depart from Tolkien's example of
                    > using vala for the "u-glide". �re is only attested in modes that put
                    > the tehtar over the preceding tengwar.
                    >

                    I think that we're just going to be stuck disagreeing on this one.


                    > p. 22, footnote 15: Technically, none of these are diphthongs (or all
                    > are). A diphthong is a special type of sound. Here, you are speaking
                    > about letters, so the term "vowel digraph" might be more appropriate.
                    > OK, sometimes vowel digraphs are called "dipthongs" as well, but in
                    > that case, a combination such as EA is also a "diphthong".
                    >

                    I'd believe it; I'm not much of a linguist.


                    > p. 27, 29: I believe that vilya cannot represent W in the "general
                    > use" of the tengwar. This would violate the t�ma consistency. W is
                    > not a k-series sound, but either a P-series sound or a KW-series
                    > sound.
                    >

                    I've been designing this entire thing around the assumption that (a) I am
                    sometimes wrong, and (b) there exist a lot of unanticipated variants in
                    modes. So I want this thing to be usable by people who disagree with me.
                    Maybe a little bit more annoying to use, but still possible to use.

                    If someone wants a wilya in a Third Age Sindarin text, for whatever reason,
                    I want there to be one letter they can type to get it. I don't want them to
                    have to go \tengfont{n}. This is the same reason why \~n gets you noldo or
                    nwalme in so many modes: not that I think you *should* use it, but that you
                    should be *able* to if you disagree with me.

                    And wilya is a W because "A Brief History of Elvish Writing" seems to want
                    to use wilya as its w, and there's no real reason why capital-W shouldn't be
                    a wilya.


                    > p. 30: With regard to "Mazarbul" WH: The only texts with r�men for W
                    > that have an instance of WH use the "extended" r�men (I used to call
                    > it a "halla-r�men ligature" but that's not the only interpretation):
                    > DTS 50 and 51.
                    >

                    Interesting. I shall have to look at that text; I will probably end up using
                    this character (is it the character Tengwar Annatar puts in slot 149?) for
                    WH in the Mazarbul mode.


                    > p. 14: I still don't like your rendering of the phonemic mode. That
                    > concerns a number of things:
                    >

                    I've attached a .tex file with a suggested revision. (You have to compile
                    it; I can send you the PDF if you want.) What do you think?

                    Here is what I want to do with the phonemic mode:

                    * I want there to be a systematic way of getting everything. So there should
                    be something that always gets you a twist after a vowel, something that
                    always gets you double overdots, etc. Your suggestion that these be y and w,
                    instead of i and u, is a good one; I wish I'd thought of it.

                    * By everything I mean not only everything in the mode of DTS 16-18; I also
                    want it to be possible, in a pinch, to transcribe DTS 24, 39, 71. Maybe you
                    have to say "therin And kYmpani" instead of "thorin And kUmpani", but you
                    shouldn't have to say "therin And k\tengfont{l}mpani". So yanta needs to
                    exist somewhere, osse+twist needs to exist somewhere, and so on and so
                    forth.

                    Maybe yanta-doubledots and yanta-twist are unnecessary, though. I put them
                    in on the general principle of (1) Why not? and (2) I've been wrong about a
                    lot of stuff, I don't want to risk being wrong that they are unnecessary.

                    * I also want a way of getting the stuff in DTS 16-18 that makes the source
                    code easy to read. This tends to mean "easy for ME to read", since, well,
                    I'm the one writing it. This is why the ae/ie/oe/ue orthographic
                    abbreviations exist. Although you're right; "ie" for the sound in "bright"
                    is just asking for misspellings of "luthien".

                    So that's what I'm going for: a fairly comprehensive systematic chart with
                    some unsystematic orthography-based stuff tacked on to make typing easier.
                    Does what I've come up with look more reasonable? Should I have an entirely
                    different theory for how this mode works?


                    > p. 15: How come you say: "Long vowels are often ignored"? All of the
                    > three samples "L�thien" (which you've misspelled, by the way: the
                    > "ie" is spelled as "i" and "e", not as "ay" � seems like your own
                    > method rendering of the phonemic mode has deceived you ;-), "use" and
                    > "who" are spelled with a `long u' which is not ignored at all, but
                    > very consistently represented.
                    >

                    I suspect I'm unclear on what a "long vowel" is. When I was in elementary
                    school, I learned the standard wrong English definitions: "lay" has a long
                    A, "he" has a long E, "bright" has a long "I", "go" has a long O, "blue" has
                    a long U. When I spent a semester in Hungary a few years ago, I was exposed
                    to *real* long vowels, and I got the impression that English does not have
                    any real long vowels anymore.

                    What that passage is getting at is this: L�thien has a letter, �, in it
                    which does not show up in normal English texts; that � is a beacon saying
                    that this is a foreign name. Elsewhere, I suggest transcribing L�thien in
                    the orthographic modes with some sort of special letter: either a long
                    carrier, or an andaith. (This isn't attested either way; there are no
                    orthographic English texts that mention L�thien.) What this paragraph is
                    saying is that you shouldn't do that in the phonemic mode; we do know that
                    L�thien is spelled more-or-less as Luthien in the phonemic mode.

                    -Ariel


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • j_mach_wust
                    ... I see. Your starting assumptions feel very unusual to me, but I can see your point. My position is usually quite different: I kinda try to bring the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 7, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In #273 of elfscript2@yahoogroups.com, Ariel Barton wrote:

                      > > p. 27, 29: I believe that vilya cannot represent W in the
                      > > "general use" of the tengwar. This would violate the téma
                      > > consistency. W is not a k-series sound, but either a P-series
                      > > sound or a KW-series sound.
                      >
                      > I've been designing this entire thing around the assumption that
                      > (a) I am sometimes wrong, and (b) there exist a lot of
                      > unanticipated variants in modes. So I want this thing to be usable
                      > by people who disagree with me. Maybe a little bit more annoying to
                      > use, but still possible to use. If someone wants a wilya in a
                      > Third Age Sindarin text, for whatever reason, I want there to be
                      > one letter they can type to get it. I don't want them to have to go
                      > \tengfont{n}. This is the same reason why \~n gets you noldo or
                      > nwalme in so many modes: not that I think you *should* use it, but
                      > that you should be *able* to if you disagree with me.

                      I see. Your starting assumptions feel very unusual to me, but I can
                      see your point. My position is usually quite different: I kinda try
                      to bring the tengwar writing back to Tolkien. When someone suggests
                      vilya for W in a mode where the quessetéma is a k-series, then I will
                      answer that this is against the principle of témar consistency. But
                      couldn't you assign another code to get vilya? Possible codes might
                      include the apostrophe since Tolkien has used it in DTS 50 (Numenian
                      code chart), or GH since Tolkien has written that óre-tyelle tengwar
                      tended to confuse with anto-tyelle tengwar. Like this, whoever wants
                      to produce vilya could still produce it, but nobody would run the
                      risk of accidently producing vilya just because they'd think all
                      w-letters in your chart were equivalent.


                      > I've attached a .tex file with a suggested revision. (You have to
                      > compile it; I can send you the PDF if you want.) What do you think?

                      You can't post attachments on the list. You can upload it to the
                      elfscript2 files section (others might be interested, too) or email
                      it directly to me.


                      > * By everything I mean not only everything in the mode of DTS
                      > 16-18; I also want it to be possible, in a pinch, to transcribe DTS
                      > 24, 39, 71. Maybe you have to say "therin And kYmpani" instead of
                      > "thorin And kUmpani", but you shouldn't have to say "therin And
                      > k\tengfont{l}mpani". So yanta needs to exist somewhere, osse+twist
                      > needs to exist somewhere, and so on and so forth.

                      I'm sorry, I forgot yanta and osse + modified left-curl were attested
                      in DTS 71.


                      > I suspect I'm unclear on what a "long vowel" is. When I was in
                      > elementary school, I learned the standard wrong English
                      > definitions: "lay" has a long A, "he" has a long E, "bright" has a
                      > long "I", "go" has a long O, "blue" has a long U.

                      Oh, I see, you didn't mean long vowels, but "long vowels"! ;-) This
                      English-speaking notion of "long vowels" tends to be quite confusing
                      to us non-native speakers.

                      > When I spent a semester in Hungary a few years ago, I was exposed
                      > to *real* long vowels, and I got the impression that English does
                      > not have any real long vowels anymore.

                      That's a good observation. However, especially British English is
                      normally analyzed as having long vowels (American English is often
                      analyzed as not having long vowels). According to the analysis of
                      (British) English phonology that we can observe in Tolkien's phonemic
                      modes there really are long vowels. That's what the use of the
                      andaith tells us, or the use of UW an IY.


                      > What that passage is getting at is this: Lúthien has a letter, ú,
                      > in it which does not show up in normal English texts; that ú is a
                      > beacon saying that this is a foreign name. Elsewhere, I suggest
                      > transcribing Lúthien in the orthographic modes with some sort of
                      > special letter: either a long carrier, or an andaith. (This isn't
                      > attested either way; there are no orthographic English texts that
                      > mention Lúthien.) What this paragraph is saying is that you
                      > shouldn't do that in the phonemic mode; we do know that Lúthien is
                      > spelled more-or-less as Luthien in the phonemic mode.

                      In the phonemic mode, Tolkien has spelled it just as is: Lúthien.
                      Vala + modified left-curl is just another sign for 'long u'. In
                      Tolkien's English, this name wouldn't sound very foreign. It has the
                      same 'long u' as in "use" or "who". What's foreign about this name's
                      pronunciation is only the ending "-en" which is not reduced as in the
                      similar English word "million", so "Lúthien" resembles more the
                      phrase "ruby end".

                      --
                      grüess
                      mach
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