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And yet another translation request....

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  • fuzzysock13
    Hello everyone. I am hoping that someone can PLEASE PLEASE help me with a translation. It is for a tattoo I am designing. I want the words music ,
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 25, 2002
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      Hello everyone. I am hoping that someone can PLEASE PLEASE help me
      with a translation. It is for a tattoo I am designing. I want the
      words "music", "forever", and the name "Toni" (my name) translated
      simply from English into the Tengwar alphabet in the Sindarin
      Standard mode. (I am not concerned about having the words translated
      into Quenya, etc). I merely want the symbols that represent the
      English letter or sound. I used a Tengwar Chart to make an attempt,
      but I am not sure if it is correct. I hope that someone can help me,
      as I really want to get this tattoo and know that I have the closest
      English/Tengwar translation possible. Thank you so much for your
      time!! =)

      ~ Toni
    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      ... Actually, what you are lookin for is a transliteration , not a translation . People could argue about what is the standard mode for Sindarin, and many
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 26, 2002
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        Teithant Toni:
        >I want the words "music", "forever", and the name "Toni"
        >(my name) translated simply from English into the
        >Tengwar alphabet in the Sindarin Standard mode.

        Actually, what you are lookin for is a 'transliteration', not a
        'translation'. People could argue about what is the standard mode for
        Sindarin, and many would decide that the mode of Beleriand would be the
        right choice. However, JRRT never used the mode of Beleriand to write
        English, AFAIK. And there's a problem with representing the sound of
        'mu-' in 'music' when writing in a Sindarin mode: Sindarin didn't have
        palatalized vowels. I believe that one of the English modes would be a
        more logical choice for your request, and there are at least three
        different English tengwar modes used by Tolkien himself. Would that work
        for you?

        Cuio mae, Danny.
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        ... Oops! I meant to say palatalized consonants! Cuio mae, Danny.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 26, 2002
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          Teithannen:
          >And there's a problem with representing the sound of 'mu-'
          >in 'music' when writing in a Sindarin mode: Sindarin
          >didn't have palatalized vowels.

          Oops! I meant to say 'palatalized consonants!'

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant fuzzysock13 ... It would be useful for us to check at your own version, and then correct any mistakes and i would be grateful if i have a pic of your
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 26, 2002
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            teithant fuzzysock13

            > Hello everyone. I am hoping that someone can PLEASE
            > PLEASE help me
            > with a translation. It is for a tattoo I am
            > designing. I want the
            > words "music", "forever", and the name "Toni" (my
            > name) translated
            > simply from English into the Tengwar alphabet in the
            > Sindarin
            > Standard mode. (I am not concerned about having the
            > words translated
            > into Quenya, etc). I merely want the symbols that
            > represent the
            > English letter or sound. I used a Tengwar Chart to
            > make an attempt,
            > but I am not sure if it is correct. I hope that
            > someone can help me,
            > as I really want to get this tattoo and know that I
            > have the closest
            > English/Tengwar translation possible. Thank you so
            > much for your
            > time!! =)

            It would be useful for us to check at your own
            version, and then correct any mistakes

            and i would be grateful if i have a pic of your tattoo
            blah blah ;))))

            ____________________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @... διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr
          • fuzzysock13
            ... for ... the ... write ... have ... be a ... work ... Danny, Yes, an English tengwar mode would work wonderfully. I just want something that can represent
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 26, 2002
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              --- In elfscript@y..., DDanielA@w... wrote:
              > Teithant Toni:
              > >I want the words "music", "forever", and the name "Toni"
              > >(my name) translated simply from English into the
              > >Tengwar alphabet in the Sindarin Standard mode.
              >
              > Actually, what you are lookin for is a 'transliteration', not a
              > 'translation'. People could argue about what is the standard mode
              for
              > Sindarin, and many would decide that the mode of Beleriand would be
              the
              > right choice. However, JRRT never used the mode of Beleriand to
              write
              > English, AFAIK. And there's a problem with representing the sound of
              > 'mu-' in 'music' when writing in a Sindarin mode: Sindarin didn't
              have
              > palatalized vowels. I believe that one of the English modes would
              be a
              > more logical choice for your request, and there are at least three
              > different English tengwar modes used by Tolkien himself. Would that
              work
              > for you?
              >
              > Cuio mae, Danny.


              Danny,
              Yes, an English tengwar mode would work wonderfully. I just want
              something that can represent the words I was looking for and that
              uses some form of Tengwar, yet is only a "transliteration". When it
              comes down to it, I am not overly concerned with the modes.

              Also...someone mentioned showing my ATTEMPT at a translation. I
              didn't use a font, but rather used a Tengwar chart to write out each
              letter by hand, so it's not so easy to submit it. Plus, I don't want
              to subject myself to more embarrassment than necessary. ;) And I'd
              love to submit a picture of my tattoo...when I figure out what the
              Tengwar will be. Thanks again to everyone for your time. =)

              ~Toni
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              ... True enough. Even so, they are rather phonemic as opposed to strictly phonemic . ... Of course. When speaking of phonemes, such digraphs are units. ...
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 1 4:41 PM
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                Teithant Alf Gandson:
                >I wouldn't even call the consonants "rather phonemic",
                >but also corresponding to traditional English consonant
                >spelling. Of course, they are "rather phonemic", but
                >only because traditional English spelling is.

                True enough. Even so, they are 'rather phonemic' as opposed to 'strictly
                phonemic'.

                >(Important: Only while considering combinations such
                >as _th_, _wh_, _sh_ as unities!)

                Of course. When speaking of phonemes, such digraphs are units.

                >in the doubling of [b] in the word _hobbits_.
                >There's absolutely NO phonemical or phonetical reason
                >for doing so.

                I would never deny that JRRT would give a nod to orthographic
                conventions concerning consonants as well as vowels. This is indeed one
                such example.

                >I wouldn't be surprised to have the word _knight_ spelled
                >in Title Page Inscription mode as "quesse - nuumen -
                >unque with an i-dot on it - tinco", i.e as k-n-i-gh-t

                Nor would I be surprised. In fact, I'd expect it. The use of unque
                follows the use in KL, and that goes along with my point of filling in
                gaps using inferences from other English modes JRRT used.


                >How to spell _dead, sea, idea, boy, coin, shoe, does, boat,
                >lie, thieve, loud, ..._?

                'Idea' doesn't really belong in this list; it doesn't contain a
                diphthong. 'e' and 'a' form two separate syllables. And I believe that
                the 'e' in 'shoe' and 'does' would be represented by the under-dot. The
                Title Page Inscription contains two diphthongs: 'eu' and 'ee'. In both
                cases they were represented by two short carriers bearing the
                appropriate ómatehtar. Perhaps we should consider that the standard.

                >But when trying to represent orthography - and that's what
                >to my point of view the writer mainly does - 'musik' is
                >preferable.

                You could be right; it's not beyond debate. However, you missed a point
                of phonemic rather than orthographic spelling which shows up inthis
                example. JRRT spelt 'is' as 'iz' according to pronunciation. Shouldn't
                we prefer 'z' to 's' in 'music' as well?
                > > ...neutral vowel...
                >? An _e_ which isn't pronounced any more? A schwa?

                Yes. I used the term 'neutral vowel' since JRRT used the same term for
                the same sign in the same word in Appendix E.


                > >Tolkien did not distinguish vowel length in the Title
                > >Page Inscription.
                >* Modern English doesn't have such a distinction. Quenya
                >has, Sindarin has, Finnish has, German has, many other
                >languages have, but English doesn't.

                Certainly it does, at least in terms of phonetics. The difference
                between 'bin' [bin] and 'bean' [bi:n], or between 'full' [ful] and
                [fu:l]. Just because spelling doesn't always reflect the distinction
                doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                >Please avoid it, because it's particularly misleading for
                >persons who're not native English speakers.

                Of course I avoid it. Tolkien didn't distinguish, so I don't
                distinguish. That was precisely my point.

                >short and long vowels didn't mean that the vowels were
                >short or long, but rather simple and compound. (I
                >think that error is also due to traditional English spelling.)

                Actually it's not an error. It's a matter of English linguistic history
                rather than comparative phonetics.

                >Don't forget about the long carrier in _history_.

                Ah, you're right ... I had forgotten that one!

                >"My completion of the Title Page Inscription mode"?

                Rather "The Title Page Inscription Mode as interpreted by D. Daniel
                Andriës, supplemented by inferences from other published English
                tengwar documents of J.R.R. Tolkien". Nah ... too long ;)

                >btw, what's bad about using anna for consonantal y?
                >I've always used it according to vala for w.

                I never implied that it's 'bad', just that it isn't the only logical
                choice. The consonant system of the TPI seems to be based pretty closely
                to the Sindarin mode of the King's Letter, version III, which uses yanta
                for consonantal 'y'. Other English tengwar examples (though admittedly
                in full writing modes) use the long carrier. Personally, would advocate
                the use of anna, but I realize that we have no confirmation of this in
                Tolkien's examples. My hope is that someday more tengwar samples written
                by Tolkien in a variety of languages will enjoy publication.

                Cuio mae, Danny.
              • Alf Gandson
                (Answers to the questions about the spelling of your are all spread about this message.) ... does, boat, lie, thieve, loud, ..._? ... doesn t contain a
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 2 5:47 AM
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                  (Answers to the questions about the spelling of your
                  are all spread about this message.)

                  DDanielA@w... teithant:

                  > >How to spell _dead, sea, idea, boy, coin, shoe,
                  does, boat, lie, thieve, loud, ..._?

                  > 'Idea' doesn't really belong in this list; it
                  doesn't contain a diphthong. 'e' and 'a' form two
                  separate syllables.

                  * I've always thought 'idea' would rhyme with 'tear'
                  in varieties of English that don't pronounce _r_ after
                  vowels, i.e. a diphtong with a glide from /i/ into
                  schwa.

                  > And I believe that the 'e' in 'shoe' and 'does'
                  would be represented by the under-dot. The Title Page
                  Inscription contains two diphthongs: 'eu' and 'ee'. In
                  both cases they were represented by two short carriers
                  bearing the appropriate ómatehtar. Perhaps we should
                  consider that the standard.

                  * (I think you're rather talking about digraphs than
                  diphtongs, but that could be dicsucced.) Yes, perhaps
                  we should consider that the standard, but I'll never
                  be happy with this solution because I don't like at
                  all the short carrier, specially when it's doubled or
                  when there's a tehtar under it - as you suggest for
                  'shoe, does', right? - That's why I'll always prefer
                  more dangerous because less attested modes. It's a
                  matter of taste.

                  > >But when trying to represent orthography - and
                  that's what to my point of view the writer mainly does
                  - 'musik' is preferable.

                  > You could be right; it's not beyond debate. However,
                  you missed a point of phonemic rather than
                  orthographic spelling which shows up inthis example.
                  JRRT spelt 'is' as 'iz' according to pronunciation.
                  Shouldn't we prefer 'z' to 's' in 'music' as well?

                  * You're right, I missed that. And with f - v it's
                  most probably all the same, even though in the Title
                  Page Inscription we only have the abbreviations for
                  'of' and 'of the'.

                  > > >Tolkien did not distinguish vowel length in the
                  Title Page Inscription.
                  > >* Modern English doesn't have such a distinction.
                  Quenya has, Sindarin has, Finnish has, German has,
                  many other languages have, but English doesn't.

                  > Certainly it does, at least in terms of phonetics.
                  The difference between 'bin' [bin] and 'bean' [bi:n],
                  or between 'full' [ful] and [fu:l]. Just because
                  spelling doesn't always reflect the distinction
                  doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                  * I don't count that as a distinction in length (even
                  though there might be one), but after all as a
                  distinction in vowel quality: there are two kinds of
                  _i_ as well as two kinds of _u_.

                  > Rather "The Title Page Inscription Mode as
                  interpreted by D. Daniel Andriës, supplemented by
                  inferences from other published English tengwar
                  documents of J.R.R. Tolkien". Nah ... too long ;)

                  * "Danny's very serious and sophisticated Title Page
                  Inscription mode interpretation"? ;-))

                  > >btw, what's bad about using anna for consonantal y?
                  I've always used it according to vala for w.

                  > I never implied that it's 'bad', just that it isn't
                  the only logical choice. The consonant system of the
                  TPI seems to be based pretty closely to the Sindarin
                  mode of the King's Letter, version III, which uses
                  yanta for consonantal 'y'. Other English tengwar
                  examples (though admittedly in full writing modes) use
                  the long carrier. Personally, would advocate the use
                  of anna, but I realize that we have no confirmation of
                  this in Tolkien's examples. My hope is that someday
                  more tengwar samples written by Tolkien in a variety
                  of languages will enjoy publication.

                  * I suppose most of the full writing modes use anna
                  for the vowel _o_ even though in teemar and tyeller
                  logic it should be consonantal _y_. Yanta is just a
                  variant of anna, the long carrier is a variant of the
                  common _i_ sign in full writing modes. Do these
                  samples really make a difference between short and
                  long carrier? I'm really sorry I don't have any access
                  to these famous King's Letters.


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