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yeah yeah, another translation request

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  • silverfingered_fling
    Dhia Dhuit, everyone Being a fanatic of unusual languages I am very pleased to learn that entire languages have been developed from Tolkien s elvish languages,
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 24, 2002
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      Dhia Dhuit, everyone

      Being a fanatic of unusual languages I am very pleased to learn that
      entire languages have been developed from Tolkien's elvish languages,
      and I have every intention of learning them...which means you will all
      be hearing back from me frequently when I need help! In the meantime,
      I need to beg a favour of anyone who has a spare moment and kindness
      enough to endulge a stranger. I need a quote translated for an
      engraving for an anniversary gift for my boyfriend. This is very
      important to me and anyone who can assist me will have my undying
      gratitude. I'm so very sorry to ask this favour; I hate to trespass
      on your goodwill, but as I said this is important to me. The quote is
      Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet." I've already
      downloaded the font I want, so I just need the actual words in either
      Quenya or Sindarin. I know there are other specifics I should be
      giving, such as whether I want it literal or phonetic, but as I am
      only just beginning to learn about these forms I am not the best judge
      as to the easiest or most suitable. And as I am asking a favour I can
      hardly make conditions. Please keep in mind as well that my boyfriend
      won't know the difference...many thanks to whomever can/will help me.
      I will send you some cookies (the eatable kind).

      ---Nicole
      silverfingered_fling@...
      PS. By the way, whoever had the idea of a site for translations has my
      congratulations for their brilliance. N
    • Gildor Inglorion
      teithant silverfingered_fling ... Dia s Muire duit, a Nicol ... no matter how srtanger we are, we are all Eruhiini ;) and besides, that s why mailing lists are
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 25, 2002
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        teithant silverfingered_fling

        > Dhia Dhuit, everyone

        Dia's Muire duit, a Nicol

        > In the meantime,
        > I need to beg a favour of anyone who has a spare
        > moment and kindness
        > enough to endulge a stranger. I need a quote

        no matter how srtanger we are, we are all Eruhiini ;)
        and besides, that's why mailing lists are for

        > gratitude. I'm so very sorry to ask this favour; I
        > hate to trespass
        > on your goodwill, but as I said this is important to
        > me.

        no trespassing ;)

        The quote is
        > Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet."

        apaalien olorinyar nuu taalulyat

        peliannen ely niin di-dail lin

        > I've already
        > downloaded the font I want, so I just need the
        > actual words in either
        > Quenya or Sindarin. I know there are other
        > specifics I should be
        > giving, such as whether I want it literal or
        > phonetic, but as I am
        > only just beginning to learn about these forms I am
        > not the best judge
        > as to the easiest or most suitable. And as I am

        ah it seems you have read the "how to ask
        transcriptions" by Hari Perala :)

        > asking a favour I can
        > hardly make conditions. Please keep in mind as well

        why? the customer has always right

        > that my boyfriend
        > won't know the difference...many thanks to whomever
        > can/will help me.
        > I will send you some cookies (the eatable kind).

        i want a scanned pic of it!!!

        ____________________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @... διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr
      • laurifindil
        ... This translation is by no mean a Quenya or Sindarin text but what the above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge s F. site which is about
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 26, 2002
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          --- In elfscript@y..., Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...> wrote:
          > teithant silverfingered_fling
          >
          > > Dhia Dhuit, everyone
          >
          > Dia's Muire duit, a Nicol
          >
          > > In the meantime,
          > > I need to beg a favour of anyone who has a spare
          > > moment and kindness
          > > enough to endulge a stranger. I need a quote
          >
          > no matter how srtanger we are, we are all Eruhiini ;)
          > and besides, that's why mailing lists are for
          >
          > > gratitude. I'm so very sorry to ask this favour; I
          > > hate to trespass
          > > on your goodwill, but as I said this is important to
          > > me.
          >
          > no trespassing ;)
          >
          > The quote is
          > > Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet."
          >
          > apaalien olorinyar nuu taalulyat
          >
          > peliannen ely niin di-dail lin
          >

          This "translation" is by no mean a Quenya or Sindarin text but what
          the above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge's F. site
          which is about *his* views of the matter and is (in my opion) far
          removed from Middle-earth's Elvish as made up by J.R.R. Tolkien.
        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant laurifindil ... correct.. that s exactly what i (and Helge) think since i am an Ardalambiondil :))) your oppinion would be welcome
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 26, 2002
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            teithant laurifindil

            > This "translation" is by no mean a Quenya or
            > Sindarin text but what
            > the above sender thinks that it would be according
            > to Helge's F. site
            > which is about *his* views of the matter and is (in
            > my opion) far
            > removed from Middle-earth's Elvish as made up by
            > J.R.R. Tolkien.

            correct.. that's exactly what i (and Helge) think
            since i am an Ardalambiondil :)))

            your oppinion would be welcome

            ____________________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @... διεύθυνση σας στο http://www.otenet.gr
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge s F. site which is about *his* views of the matter and is (in my opion) far removed from
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2002
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              > > > Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet."

              Gildor Inglorion offered these Quenya and Sindarin renderings:

              > > Apaalien olorinyar nuu taalulyat
              > >
              > > Peliannen ely niin di-dail lin

              Laurifindil wrote:

              > This "translation" is by no mean a Quenya or Sindarin text but what the
              above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge's F. site which is
              about *his* views of the matter and is (in my opion) far removed from
              Middle-earth's Elvish as made up by J.R.R. Tolkien.

              Let us hope there are at least some tenuous connections between Tolkien's
              Elvish and our current reconstructions of it. But JRRT being dead, any
              present-day Quenya or Sindarin text by definition represents merely the
              writer's "views" or understanding. Non-Tolkien Eldarin texts could only
              attain the same level of "authority" as Tolkien's own texts if he were to
              look over them and say "yeah, this is correct Elvish"...and for the
              post-1973 part of eternity, that is not an option. So we use what we have
              and do the best we can.

              I largely agree with Gildor's translation. _Nuu_ should be _nu_, I guess,
              and _taal_ "foot" has the stem-form _tal-_. Using the dual marker _u_ as a
              connecting vowel before the ending _-lya_ is a plausible extrapolation
              based on the general system (though of course we can't be sure that "this
              is how Tolkien would have done it"). _Apaalien olorinyar nu talulyat_ is
              certainly understandable and generally "plausible" Quenya, which is really
              all we can aim for.

              Same with the Sindarin suggestion. _Ely_ "dreams" is a Sindarin update of
              the Noldorin plural _elei_. _Lin_, or rather _lîn_, as a word for "your"
              represents an extrapolation also used in Movie Sindarin. Apparently we will
              soon have a Tolkien-made Sindarin word for "your", since Tolkien's partial
              Sindarin translation of the Lord's Prayer is supposed to be published in
              the next issue of VT; Tolkien must at least have gotten to "your name" in
              the second line. (Any updates on the next VT, by the way? I believe it is
              now more than a month since if was first announced as "upcoming"...)

              _Peliannen_ for "I spread" is based on three assumptions: that the past
              tense of _pelia-_ is _peliant_ (certainly many A-stem verbs are seen to
              take the ending _-nt_ in the past tense), that _peliant_ becomes _peliann-_
              before a vowel (this is in accordance with the most typical version of
              Grey-elven phonology, though Tolkien might also have used _pelianth-_ if he
              was in that mood), and that before a pronominal ending like _-n_ "I" we
              would see the connecting vowel _e_ (this is supported by Tolkien's form
              _ónen_ "I gave"). If this line of deduction is sound, _peliannen_ would
              work for "I spread". It is not "certain", of course, but it is not the
              product of wild, unfounded speculation either.

              The greatest uncertainty has to do with the preposition _di_ "beneath"; I'm
              not sure what kind of mutation we have in Tolkien's phrase _di' nguruthos_;
              the _'_ may indicate something peculiar. Perhaps _di dail_ is a correct
              rendering of "beneath...feet", but then it could also be _di thail_ or
              something even weirder. I'd say, rather use _nu_ here, since this
              preposition is almost certainly followed by the soft mutation.

              _Peliannen ely nîn nu dail lîn_, then. For _lîn_ substitute Tolkien's own
              word for "your" if it does become available soon (assuming that he did use
              another word...in several cases, post-Tolkien extrapolations have turned
              out to be very close to his own ideas, when more material became
              available!)

              Sorry, this was more about the languages as such than about the scripts...

              - HF
            • laurifindil
              ... I reccomend a change to the last line to something like : I, Helge, use these languages as I see it fit to the best of what I would like that these
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 3, 2002
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                --- In elfscript@y..., "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@n...>
                wrote:
                > > > > Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet."
                >
                > Gildor Inglorion offered these Quenya and Sindarin renderings:
                >
                > > > Apaalien olorinyar nuu taalulyat
                > > >
                > > > Peliannen ely niin di-dail lin
                >
                > Laurifindil wrote:
                >
                > > This "translation" is by no mean a Quenya or Sindarin text but what the
                > above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge's F. site which is
                > about *his* views of the matter and is (in my opion) far removed from
                > Middle-earth's Elvish as made up by J.R.R. Tolkien.
                >
                > Let us hope there are at least some tenuous connections between Tolkien's
                > Elvish and our current reconstructions of it. But JRRT being dead, any
                > present-day Quenya or Sindarin text by definition represents merely the
                > writer's "views" or understanding. Non-Tolkien Eldarin texts could only
                > attain the same level of "authority" as Tolkien's own texts if he were to
                > look over them and say "yeah, this is correct Elvish"...and for the
                > post-1973 part of eternity, that is not an option. So we use what we have
                > and do the best we can.
                >

                I reccomend a change to the last line to something like :

                I, Helge, use these languages as I see it fit to the best of what I
                would like that these languages were.

                And forget the "we", will you...
              • silverfingered_fling
                ... what the ... which is ... from ... Tolkien s ... any ... merely the ... only ... were to ... the ... we have ... I don t mean to sound impertinent, but I
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 3, 2002
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                  --- In elfscript@y..., "laurifindil" <ejk@f...> wrote:
                  > --- In elfscript@y..., "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@n...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > > > > Yeats': "I have spread my dreams beneath your feet."
                  > >
                  > > Gildor Inglorion offered these Quenya and Sindarin renderings:
                  > >
                  > > > > Apaalien olorinyar nuu taalulyat
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Peliannen ely niin di-dail lin
                  > >
                  > > Laurifindil wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > This "translation" is by no mean a Quenya or Sindarin text but
                  what the
                  > > above sender thinks that it would be according to Helge's F. site
                  which is
                  > > about *his* views of the matter and is (in my opion) far removed
                  from
                  > > Middle-earth's Elvish as made up by J.R.R. Tolkien.
                  > >
                  > > Let us hope there are at least some tenuous connections between
                  Tolkien's
                  > > Elvish and our current reconstructions of it. But JRRT being dead,
                  any
                  > > present-day Quenya or Sindarin text by definition represents
                  merely the
                  > > writer's "views" or understanding. Non-Tolkien Eldarin texts could
                  only
                  > > attain the same level of "authority" as Tolkien's own texts if he
                  were to
                  > > look over them and say "yeah, this is correct Elvish"...and for
                  the
                  > > post-1973 part of eternity, that is not an option. So we use what
                  we have
                  > > and do the best we can.
                  > >
                  >
                  > I reccomend a change to the last line to something like :
                  >
                  > I, Helge, use these languages as I see it fit to the best of what I
                  > would like that these languages were.
                  >
                  > And forget the "we", will you...

                  I don't mean to sound impertinent, but I will ask this again because I
                  have read most of your postings and know you are very knowledgeable
                  about JRRT's languages. However, my interest (outside of my very
                  humble, very unoriginal project) is to learn, which I do best by
                  picking brains. Your point is quite well taken; now, could you please
                  advise what your translation, even an incomplete one (to avoid the
                  possibility of impurity by invention)would be? I realise that if one
                  adheres strictly to what has been written by JRRT himself there will
                  be holes but at the same time either the words mean something or they
                  don't and everybody here is wasting time that could be spent learning
                  a "real" language. If the words do mean something I/we/you should be
                  able to at least "translate" one word; if they don't it's merely
                  gibberish and doesn't matter anyway. I suppose I just don't
                  understand how your reply is anything other than a personal attack
                  that doesn't really answer the question. I confess this disappoints
                  me when I read some of your comments regarding other subjects.
                  Opinions mean more to me when they are based on something more solid
                  than mere "disagreement." Again, I am not trying to be rude; I have
                  the utmost respect for your position. I am just trying as
                  well as I can to understand...please advise.
                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                  ... like that these languages were. Not quite. If I felt free to actually _change_ the languages beyond the range of variation found in Tolkien s writings, I
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 7, 2002
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                    Laurifindil wrote:

                    > I reccomend a change to the last line to something like :
                    > I, Helge, use these languages as I see it fit to the best of what I would
                    like that these languages were.

                    Not quite. If I felt free to actually _change_ the languages beyond the
                    range of variation found in Tolkien's writings, I would certainly have
                    suggested certain "improvements" long ago. For instance, for the sake of
                    clarity I would have changed the Quenya ending for dual allative from
                    _-nta_ to **_-nnat_, since the ending _-nta_ can have other meanings as
                    well (past participle as in _envinyanta_ "renewed"; there may also be an
                    ending *_-nta_ "their"). But I do not feel free to "improve" the basic
                    structure of the languages with no support in Tolkien's own writings. At
                    most I will suggest which ideas _within the range of variation found in the
                    primary sources_ that would fit best together in a unified system. It is of
                    course a major problem that so much material is still unpublished, so all
                    too often we have to fall back on conjecture and extrapolation. Yet even
                    now the main outlines of the grammar are clear, despite minor or even major
                    fluctuations in Tolkien's conception.

                    > And forget the "we", will you...

                    I did speak of "our current reconstructions" of Tolkien's Elvish -- and
                    this is not a royal "our" really meaning "my". Many people have been
                    working for decades to reconstruct the unstated (or at least unpublished!)
                    grammatical ideas underlying Tolkien's Elvish languages as we know them
                    from various samples, and I have read much of what others have written on
                    this subject. True, I have tried to make my own contributions; I do not
                    always agree with the conclusions of others and others don't always agree
                    with my conclusions, and in any case I take full responsibility for the
                    ideas expressed on my web-page. However, it would be quite improper of me
                    to imply that I owe nothing to the work of others. For instance, "my"
                    presentation of Sindarin reflects David Salo's research rather than my own;
                    David allowed me to draw on his unpublished work.

                    If others totally disagree with the reconstructions of Tolkien's Elvish
                    that appear on Ardalambion, there is plenty of room on the web for other
                    ideas and other reconstructions.

                    - HF
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    On 7/7/02 3:23 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... First, of course no one has to do any such thing; you choose to do so. Second,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 7, 2002
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                      On 7/7/02 3:23 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
                      wrote:

                      > It is of course a major problem that so much material is still unpublished, so
                      > all too often we have to fall back on conjecture and extrapolation.
                      >
                      First, "of course" no one "has" to do any such thing; you choose to
                      do so.

                      Second, your assertion assumes that there is one clear, unequivocal
                      answer to all your questions in the unpublished papers. This is almost never
                      the case, as has been now demonstrated repeatedly. The more that is
                      published, the _less_ certain you will be about what you (think) you know
                      about Quenya and Sindarin (the moreso because you determine your "knowledge"
                      on a more-or-less arbitrarily selected portion of all the available data
                      that conforms to your preconceived notions and extrapolations. Thus, for
                      example, before the latest _VT_, you and many others would have said that
                      "of course" the Sindarin word for "name" is *_ess-_: even though the (or, at
                      any rate, _a_) _correct_ answer to that particular question was published
                      years ago in the Gnomish Lexicon.)


                      |======================================================================|
                      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                      | |
                      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                      |======================================================================|
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... unpublished, so all too often we have to fall back on conjecture and extrapolation. CFH possibly felt that some kind of accusation was implied here, so he
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 12, 2002
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                        I wrote:

                        > > It is of course a major problem that so much material is still
                        unpublished, so all too often we have to fall back on conjecture and
                        extrapolation.

                        CFH possibly felt that some kind of accusation was implied here, so he
                        responded:

                        > First, "of course" no one "has" to do any such thing; you choose to do
                        so.

                        No one "has" to do any kind of work on Tolkien's languages, or study them
                        for any purpose or from any angle (including the one preferred by CFH
                        himself). The survival of the human race is not at stake here. But I try
                        not to be completely nonchalant about what most people actually _enjoy_
                        about Tolkien's languages, and that goes beyond the potentially dry
                        academic study which CFH often seems to imply is the only proper angle.

                        > Second, your assertion assumes that there is one clear, unequivocal
                        answer to all your questions in the unpublished papers.

                        If I ever assumed such a thing, it was a long time ago. Yet there must be
                        _some_ answers to _some_ of the remaining questions, and I (and many
                        others!) would often be happy to have just _one_ genuinely Tolkienian
                        answer -- preferably an answer that seems to represent a long-lasting idea
                        or feature.

                        > Thus, for example, before the latest _VT_, you and many others would have
                        said that "of course" the Sindarin word for "name" is *_ess-_ [whereas
                        Tolkien actually used _eneth_]

                        I would never say that any unattested word must "of course" be whatever
                        reconstruction I or others could offer. Before the latest VT, my _best
                        guess_ would have been that the Sindarin word for "name" is *_ess_,
                        especially since the closely related verb _esta-_ "to name, call" is
                        attested in the King's Letter. For Neo-Sindarin purposes, *_ess_ would be
                        an entirely plausible word even now, especially if we presuppose a
                        Quenya-influenced form of Sindarin. Now that a Tolkienian word is
                        available, I would certainly use that if I wanted to compose in Sindarin.
                        However, not even Tolkien himself ever put together a definite, universal
                        Eldarin dictionary. When translating a text, it is obvious that he
                        developed much of the required vocabulary as he went along. I think he saw
                        the individual languages primarily as a certain diachronic development, a
                        kind of phonological _story_; details of grammar and vocabulary were less
                        important and could be filled in (i.e., made up) as the occasion required.
                        To the extent we understand the phonological development of the individual
                        languages, we can also expand the vocabulary by starting from Tolkien's own
                        roots. In most cases we would probably be filling genuine gaps, though we
                        must of course see all of Tolkien's manuscripts before we can be certain.

                        > even though the (or, at any rate, _a_) _correct_ answer to that
                        particular question was published years ago in the Gnomish Lexicon.)

                        The word _eneth_ does not appear in the Gnomish Lexicon. Certainly the
                        Gnomish verb _entha-_ "to call, name" is a conceptual predecessor involving
                        a similar stem, but no one could have deduced a Sindarin form like _eneth_
                        from Gnomish _entha-_. In most cases, extrapolating Sindarin words from
                        (the more developed forms of) Quenya is certainly much safer than trying to
                        base Sindarin words on the Gnomish Lexicon.

                        Yes, this is of course getting OT for this list.

                        - HF
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        On 7/12/02 7:59 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... Precisely my point. No one has to use Quenya; it is a choice. If people engage
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 12, 2002
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                          On 7/12/02 7:59 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
                          wrote:

                          > I wrote:
                          >
                          >>> It is of course a major problem that so much material is still unpublished,
                          >>> so all too often we have to fall back on conjecture and extrapolation.
                          >>>
                          > CFH possibly felt that some kind of accusation was implied here, so he
                          > responded:
                          >
                          >> First, "of course" no one "has" to do any such thing; you choose to do so.
                          >>
                          > No one "has" to do any kind of work on Tolkien's languages,
                          >
                          Precisely my point. No one "has" to "use" Quenya; it is a choice. If people
                          engage in conjecture and extrapolation, that is a choice, not a necessity.

                          > that goes beyond the potentially dry academic study which CFH often seems to
                          > imply is the only proper angle.
                          >
                          I may "often seem to imply" such a thing to you, but that is due to your
                          prejudices, not to my words. I have never said that there is an "only
                          proper angle". What I _am_ saying is that one should not confuse choice with
                          necessity, or conjecture with fact, or Quenya with *Quenya.

                          >> Second, your assertion assumes that there is one clear, unequivocal answer to
                          >> all your questions in the unpublished papers.
                          >>
                          > If I ever assumed such a thing, it was a long time ago. Yet there must be
                          > _some_ answers to _some_ of the remaining questions,
                          >
                          Yes, of course there are. (Really, you seem not to be reading my posts with
                          much care or thought. Perhaps all that squeaking in your head is too
                          distracting?) That's my point: many (most) of the questions you'd like
                          answered have _many_ answers; which means that there really is no canonical
                          or platonic "answer" for most questions, only processes.

                          > and I (and many others!) would often be happy to have just _one_ genuinely
                          > Tolkienian answer -- preferably an answer that seems to represent a
                          > long-lasting idea or feature.
                          >
                          I am certainly not responsible for producing answers to your questions, and
                          most especially not responsible for the manner in which Tolkien worked, his
                          choices and reconsiderations, or the nature of the work he left behind
                          unpublished.

                          > For Neo-Sindarin purposes, *_ess_ would be an entirely plausible word even
                          > now, especially if we presuppose a Quenya-influenced form of Sindarin.
                          >
                          But the _Adar Nín_ seems to be composed in a "Quenya-influenced form of
                          Sindarin", as can be seen from Tolkien's remarks about _le_ and _menel_ in
                          _The Road Goes Ever On_, and the occurrence of these specific forms (_lín_
                          being an oblique form of _le_) in the prayer.

                          No matter how "plausible", *_ess_ is only conjecture; _eneth_ is fact.

                          > When translating a text, it is obvious that he developed much of the required
                          > vocabulary as he went along. I think he saw the individual languages primarily
                          > as a certain diachronic development, a kind of phonological _story_; details
                          > of grammar and vocabulary were less important and could be filled in (i.e.,
                          > made up) as the occasion required.
                          >
                          I'm inclined to agree; and would further add that those elements could be
                          (and often were) reinvented when the next occasion arose. So again, you are
                          making my very point.

                          > To the extent we understand the phonological development of the individual
                          > languages, we can also expand the vocabulary by starting from Tolkien's own
                          > roots.
                          >
                          You cannot expand the vocabulary of Quenya; only Tolkien could do that. What
                          you can do is create and use words that follow (what you think to be)
                          Tolkien's patterns, and then claim that they are consistent with what we
                          know of Quenya phonology, morphology, etc. And I have no problem with that
                          whatsoever. But the resulting vocabulary is _not_ Quenya; it is at best
                          *Quenya. Useful, yes, for certain purposes, and not without interest or
                          appeal; but also _not nearly_ as interesting or appealing (to me, and if you
                          are honest about all this, to you either) as Tolkien's inventions.

                          > Yes, this is of course getting OT for this list.
                          >
                          Ah, but see, now we've come back on topic!


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                          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                          | |
                          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
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