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Óre

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  • Helge K. Fauskanger
    ... were written before the publication of LOTR, _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the manuscripts [but this Tengwa was later renamed úre,
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 15, 2002
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      Arden R. Smith wrote:

      > Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of the tengwar and their names
      were written before the publication of LOTR, _úr_ is the form that is most
      frequently found in the manuscripts [but this Tengwa was later renamed úre,
      as we know]

      It seems to me that _úr_ would have been a proper name for the Tengwa that
      Tolkien actually named óre. Its name is just as mysterious as the names of
      the Tengwar yanta and úre, which Quenya words would NOT contain these
      letters when written out in Tengwar. According to Arden R. Smith, yanta was
      indeed used for initial Y at one stage, and evidence from Rúmilian suggests
      that _úre_ could be written _uwre_ in non-standard Quenya spelling (using
      the letter úre for the W). But what about óre?

      In our samples of Quenya spelling, óre is used for R's that are not
      followed by a vowel in the same word. Other R's are represented by rómen.
      And of course, this means that the middle R of the word _óre_ should also
      be spelt with a rómen, NOT with the letter óre! As I said, _úr_ would have
      been a more logical name for this Tengwa, since a final R is to be spelt
      with the letter we know as óre.

      Indeed the whole rómen/óre distinction in Quenya spelling is rather
      surprising. Tolkien suggests that _óre_ was (at one stage) a weak R (maybe
      like English R), whereas rómen represents a stronger, trilled R. It is, of
      course, entirely plausible that R might be pronounced somewhat weaker in
      front of another consonant and at the end of words -- but why on earth
      would this non-phonemic distinction be reflected in writing? If Feanor was
      so interested in explicitly recording even non-essential details of
      pronunciation, we should have seen (say) a special sign for the slightly
      palatalized L in words like _Elda_ as well.

      - HF
    • Måns Björkman
      ... But as we know, Feanor was more interested in _writing_, in its practical and its decorative aspects rather than as an accurate phonetic transcription
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 16, 2002
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        Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

        > Indeed the whole rómen/óre distinction in Quenya spelling is rather
        > surprising. Tolkien suggests that _óre_ was (at one stage) a weak R (maybe
        > like English R), whereas rómen represents a stronger, trilled R. It is, of
        > course, entirely plausible that R might be pronounced somewhat weaker in
        > front of another consonant and at the end of words -- but why on earth
        > would this non-phonemic distinction be reflected in writing? If Feanor was
        > so interested in explicitly recording even non-essential details of
        > pronunciation, we should have seen (say) a special sign for the slightly
        > palatalized L in words like _Elda_ as well.


        But as we know, Feanor was more interested in "_writing_, in its
        practical and its decorative aspects rather than as an accurate phonetic
        transcription" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ #39 p.8). Perhaps the distribution of
        <óre> and <rómen> in our samples is actually meant to be decorative more
        than anything else. Similar systems of decorative spelling were, after
        all, common in the middle ages.


        Yours,

        Måns

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      • Alf Gandson
        teithant Helge K. Fauskanger; ... be reflected in writing? If Feanor was so interested in explicitly recording even non-essential details of
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 17, 2002
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          teithant Helge K. Fauskanger;

          <snip>

          >but why on earth would this non-phonemic distinction
          be reflected in writing? If Feanor was so interested
          in explicitly recording even non-essential details of
          pronunciation, we should have seen (say) a special
          sign for the slightly palatalized L in words like
          _Elda_ as well.

          *I don't know it either, but such form alternations
          are quite wide-spread in different writings. We even
          had one in our roman alphabet with the long s-form
          (like f without the little crossing bar) used in all
          positions but finally, where the short s-form (the
          actual s) was used. The reason might have been esthetic.

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        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant Alf Gandson ... in miniscule greek writing, the final s is different than in every other posisions
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 18, 2002
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            teithant Alf Gandson

            > *I don't know it either, but such form alternations
            > are quite wide-spread in different writings. We even
            > had one in our roman alphabet with the long s-form
            > (like f without the little crossing bar) used in all
            > positions but finally, where the short s-form (the
            > actual s) was used. The reason might have been
            > esthetic.

            in miniscule greek writing, the final s is different
            than in every other posisions

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          • gildir_1
            ... That is beleivable, though I can t see the decorative, or aestetic, aspect to a rule that but not can t have a tehta above it.
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 19, 2002
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              Måns Björkman:

              > But as we know, Feanor was more interested in "_writing_,
              > in its practical and its decorative aspects rather than as an
              > accurate phonetic transcription" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ #39 p.8).
              > Perhaps the distribution of <óre> and <rómen> in our samples
              > is actually meant to be decorative more than anything else.
              > Similar systems of decorative spelling were, after all, common
              > in the middle ages.

              That is beleivable, though I can't see the decorative, or aestetic,
              aspect to a rule that <rómen> but not <óre> can't have a tehta
              above it.

              <silme> <úre + two-dot> <lambe> <a-bow + 2-dot> <ando>

              Gildir, Per Lindberg
            • Alf Gandson
              ... decorative, or aestetic, aspect to a rule that but not can t have a tehta above it. *Well, you don t have to use always the same boring
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 19, 2002
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                Gildir teithant:

                >That is beleivable, though I can't see the
                decorative, or aestetic, aspect to a rule that <rómen>
                but not <óre> can't have a tehta above it.

                *Well, you don't have to use always the same boring
                r-letter. Esthetic through variation.

                As David Salo pointed out (
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/117 ),
                in quenya, the two different r-tengwar also serve to
                indicate the omitted a-sounds. But he leads us to
                almost the same question Helge K. Fauskanger made (why
                r but not l?), only that he doesn't allude to
                pronunciation but to orthographics: with the a's
                omitted, you can't tell if there has to be one after a
                lambe or not (while after oore or roomen it's
                obvious). As this doesn't bring us any further, the
                easy answer that there are two different r-tengwar
                because of esthetic reasons satisfies me - tengwar for
                me have to do a lot with esthetics.

                suilaid
                alf

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