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Re: [elfscript] Aníron teithad i•thîw edhellin.

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  • Angasule
    ... Those words are written with sule, yes, at least that s the normal usage AFAIK, I guess the reason silme is used in namarie it s because of (1) or because
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 30, 2000
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      DDanielA@... wrote:
      >
      > My chief interest is in Sindarin, but I have a question concerning
      > Quenya. In Appendix E, JRRT states, "This [th] had become in Quenya
      > spoken s, though still written with a different letter." We are led to
      > believe that this letter was thúle/súle. I was under the impression
      > that words spelt with an "s" in Quenya that had its cognate with "th"
      > in
      > Sindarin would spelt with súle in its tengwar rendering, but in
      > Tolkien's "Namárië" calligraphy pieces in RGEO we find
      > "sindanóriello" and "hísië" with silme where I would expect
      > súle. I have two theories:
      > 1.) Quenya was no longer a native language to anyone in Middle Earth
      > (except Galadriel [?], being the last of the Noldorin exiles), and
      > scribes automatically wrote a silme to represent the "s" sound as was
      > found in their own native modes.
      > Or:
      > 2.) Professor Tolkien changed his own rules almost as much as he
      > followed them and ignored the distinction between súle and silme!
      > What does anyone else think about this? Or am I wrong in thinking
      > that the words in question would be written with súle?
      > —Danny Andriës.
      Those words are written with sule, yes, at least that's the normal
      usage AFAIK, I guess the reason silme is used in namarie it's because of
      (1) or because Tolkien just decided not to use it or forgot (unlikely,
      I'd say), I don't think he'd have just discarded the whole silme/sule
      thing, being already printed in lotr. I guess modern writers can decide
      whether to use silme or sule, I think using sule looks better, same with
      noldo/numen.
      Angasule
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... This seems IMO to be just a natural adaption of the Tengwar to the phonology of Sindarin. ... ...which, apparently in the mode of Beleriand and actually in
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 31, 2000
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        Danny Andriës wrote:

        > While [the mode of Beleriand used for] Sindarin
        > may have been based on an early Quenya mode, there are some
        > very distinct differences, as well. For example, the use of tyeller 2
        > and 4 for the nasalised stops could not have provided an example for
        > the Sindarin values of those tengwar.

        This seems IMO to be just a natural adaption of the Tengwar to the
        phonology of Sindarin.


        > And since the Sindar had no need for a
        > labialised series (with the possible exception of the frequent
        > combination "gw" ),

        ...which, apparently in the mode of Beleriand and actually in the King's
        Letter modes, was written with g-tengwa + w-tehta.


        > that left both Series III and IV available to
        > represent the velar stops.

        True, but in such circumstances it would seem more logical and
        economical to use series III than IV, especially since the letters in IV
        each requires one pencil-stroke more than those in III.


        > Hopefully more examples will be found in
        > Professor Tolkien's as yet unpublished papers that may shed more light
        > on the various tengwar modes.

        That I am quite sure of.


        > [regarding the unetymological spelling of Quenya _th_ > _s_]
        >
        > I have two theories:
        > 1.) Quenya was no longer a native language to anyone in Middle Earth
        > (except Galadriel [?], being the last of the Noldorin exiles), and
        > scribes automatically wrote a silme to represent the "s" sound as was
        > found in their own native modes.

        Even Galadriel would have abandoned Quenya in favour of Sindarin during
        the First Age. Appendix F states that it was "no longer a birth-tongue,
        but had become, as it were, and 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony,
        and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves", and further,
        that Sindarin "was the tongue of all those Elves and Elf-lords that
        appear in this history."

        Like Angasúle, I agree the most likely explanation for this "error" is
        ignorance. Unfortunately we have to take Tolkien's word for old _th_
        being written with a different letter, since no Quenya specimen
        containing <súle> has been published.


        Nai sarmendilin i vinya loa tyare alasse!
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden An þer."
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