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Re: the use of tengwa 'anna'

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  • laurifindil
    ... ... Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 7, 2002
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      --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
      >

      <snip>

      >
      > The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
      > represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
      > at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
      > incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
      > "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
      > languages.

      Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
      another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
      HAN- or 3AN-.

      Eldar thought that the "a" in anna was a "racine tengwe" and "For this
      purpuse it was not necessary to distinguish between true 'loss' and
      'omission'". The "meaning" of the tengwa, "gift", is also appropriate
      for its use.

      > >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
      > >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
      > >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
      > >
      > >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
      > >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?
      >
      > To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
      > actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
      > however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
      > the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
      > using the short carrier.

      It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
      _anna_ may I ask?

      As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
      written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
      e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... In most instances it s implied rather than stated, but on one page of rough notes it s clear that this is the case. ... It was then used for /y/, as in the
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 8, 2002
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        Laurifindil wrote:

        >Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
        >another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
        >HAN- or 3AN-.

        In most instances it's implied rather than stated, but on one page of
        rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

        >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
        >_anna_ may I ask?

        It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
        Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.

        >As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
        >written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
        >e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.

        In that particular example, the a-tehta was omitted above the doubled
        númen, but yes, the initial vowel was written as a-tehta over a short
        carrier. The presence of an etymological [3] is not implied in this
        example.

        This ties in with the "Vala vs. wilya" thread. If the scribe of the
        RGEO "Namárie" had used etymological spellings, he should also have
        used anna rather than the short carrier in _aldaron_, since _alda_
        derives from PQ _*galadaa_.

        --
        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • Gildor Inglorion
        teithant Arden R. Smith ... wouldn t Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then? ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 9, 2002
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          teithant "Arden R. Smith"

          > In most instances it's implied rather than stated,
          > but on one page of
          > rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

          wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?


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        • Arden R. Smith
          ... Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that. -- ******************************************************************** Arden R.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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            Gildor Inglorion wrote:

            >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?

            Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that.

            --
            ********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
            "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
            "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

            --Lewis Carroll,
            _Through the Looking-glass_
            ********************************************************************
          • Gildor Inglorion
            teithant Arden R. Smith ... you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where those notes can be found?
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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              teithant "Arden R. Smith"

              > >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?
              >
              > Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that
              > Tolkien realized that.

              you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where
              those notes can be found?

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            • Arden R. Smith
              ... Perhaps. There s often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind about something. He
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                Gildor wrote:

                >you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake?

                Perhaps. There's often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien
                realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind
                about something. He often changed his mind about something and then
                had to deal with all the difficulties that would arise out of that.
                I'm just saying that Tolkien realized that if _anna_ once began with
                [3] (presumably < *[g], though this is not explicitly stated), then
                _ónen_ must begin with [g].

                >where
                >those notes can be found?

                They are at present still unpublished.

                --
                ********************************************************************
                Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                --Lewis Carroll,
                _Through the Looking-glass_
                ********************************************************************
              • laurifindil
                ... ... use of ... Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil and that is what is meant with the use of the for that
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 12, 2002
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                  --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Laurifindil wrote:
                  >

                  <snip>

                  > >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the
                  use of
                  > >_anna_ may I ask?
                  >
                  > It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                  > Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.
                  >

                  Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                  and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                  was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.
                • Arden R. Smith
                  ... It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant by
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
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                    Laurifindil wrote:

                    >Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                    >and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                    >was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.

                    It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                    by <'> as the transcription of the Westron value of wilya, as far as
                    I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a glottal stop, a smooth
                    breathing, or a marker of hiatus.

                    --
                    ********************************************************************
                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                    "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                    "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                    "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                    --Lewis Carroll,
                    _Through the Looking-glass_
                    ********************************************************************
                  • Alf Gandson
                    Arden R. Smith teithant: ... by
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                      Arden R. Smith teithant:

                      <snip>

                      >Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                      by <'>; as the transcription of the Westron value of
                      wilya, as far as I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a
                      glottal stop, a smooth breathing, or a marker of
                      hiatus.

                      *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                      smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                      voiceless one?

                      *I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                      Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                      stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                      due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                      Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                      Cobertura especial de la Copa Mundial de la FIFA Corea-Japón 2002, sólo en Yahoo! Deportes:
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                    • John Cowan
                      ... The term smooth breathing refers to the mark used in older Greek script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It is purely
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                        =?iso-8859-1?q?Alf=20Gandson?= scripsit:

                        > *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                        > smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                        > voiceless one?

                        The term "smooth breathing" refers to the mark used in older Greek
                        script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It
                        is purely orthographical and never has represented any sound whatever.
                        In Modern Greek, [h] has fallen as well, and the new orthography
                        has discarded both smooth (silent) and rough (officially [h], but
                        actually also silent) breathing marks.

                        --
                        John Cowan <jcowan@...> http://www.reutershealth.com
                        I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                        han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_
                      • Arden R. Smith
                        ... This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound, represented by a
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                          Alf Gandson wrote:

                          >*I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                          >smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                          >voiceless one?

                          This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with
                          an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound,
                          represented by a backwards apostrophe) or a smooth breathing,
                          represented by a normal apostrophe, which has no real phonetic value
                          other than "absence of [h]". This was just speculation on my part,
                          and I don't really believe that this is what Tolkien meant by <'>.

                          >*I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                          >Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                          >stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                          >due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                          >Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                          I would agree that the glottal stop is the most likely value of
                          Westron <'>, especially given the use of <'> to represent a glottal
                          stop in Khuzdul, but there doesn't appear to be any explicit
                          statement by Tolkien to that effect.

                          I failed to mention in my last post that the value of Westron <'>
                          could also be purely etymological, representing some consonantal
                          sound that was no longer pronounced in Third Age Common Speech.
                          Unfortunately, we don't know very much about the phonological
                          development of Westron from Adûnaic.

                          It seems unlikely, however, that it would represent the /3/ or /?/ of
                          Adûnaic. Lowdham's report states that the /3/ of archaic Adunaic
                          later disappeared in all positions, lengthening a preceding short
                          vowel when it was lost at the end of a word. Archaic /?/ presumably
                          disappeared very early, according to Lowdham, and furthermore "had no
                          sign in Adunaic script" (_Sauron Defeated_, pp. 419-20). Thus these
                          sounds would already have vanished before the Downfall, so it is
                          unlikely that the mortal races of Middle-earth would have preserved
                          them in orthography more than three millennia later.

                          --
                          ********************************************************************
                          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                          --Lewis Carroll,
                          _Through the Looking-glass_
                          ********************************************************************
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