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Re: Vala vs. wilya

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  • laurifindil
    ... adjective ... instead (with ... ending _-ra_ ... adjectival ... distinct ... time ago). ... revisited ... evidence. ... And the word Vanya shows it...
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 7, 2002
      --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
      > On 6/7/02 4:12 AM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@n...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > Probably. It may be noted that according to a recent VT, the
      adjective
      > > _úra_ listed in this entry in Etym later came to mean "nasty"
      instead (with
      > > a new derivation: _the negative element _ú-_ + the adjectival
      ending _-ra_
      > > rather than _úr-_ = strengthened form of UR + the simplest
      adjectival
      > > ending _-a_).
      >
      > Of course, it's by no means certain that the two _úra_s, with
      distinct
      > meanings and derivations, didn't coexist.
      >
      > > (and CFH cited the full ending _-lve_ in an Elfling message some
      time ago).
      >
      > That should have been *_-lve_. A lazy citation on my part.
      >
      > > Any thoughts?
      >
      > Good questions all. The _w_ vs. _v_ question was one that Tolkien
      revisited
      > frequently over the decades, and there is much vacillation in
      evidence.
      >

      And the word "Vanya" shows it...
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... It s not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically, but they didn t
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
        Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

        >I am not sure
        >whether the Namárie transcript in RGEO is entirely "reliable": As was
        >pointed out already in _Introduction to Elvish_, the word _hísie_ is not
        >spelt the way it should be according to the rules Tolkien set out elsewhere
        >(silme being used instead of súle, though this _s_ comes from earlier
        >_th_). So did Tolkien forget his own rules once again when he spelt _vanwa_
        >with an initial vala?

        It's not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not
        absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically,
        but they didn't *need* to be.

        It would be interesting to know who the supposed scribe of the RGEO
        version of "Namárie" was. A Noldorin loremaster would presumably
        have used the "correct" etymological spellings, but a Telerin or
        Gondorian scribe with less training in historical linguistics (and
        who was young enough not to remember the former pronunciations!)
        might not.

        --
        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • laurifindil
        ... ... Tolkien had quite a good memory. Anyone familiar with the Middle Ages knows the scribal error . ... I think that the supposed scribe in that
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
          --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
          >

          <snip>

          >
          > It's not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not
          > absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically,
          > but they didn't *need* to be.

          Tolkien had quite a good memory.
          Anyone familiar with the Middle Ages knows the "scribal error".

          > It would be interesting to know who the supposed scribe of the RGEO
          > version of "Namárie" was. A Noldorin loremaster would presumably
          > have used the "correct" etymological spellings, but a Telerin or
          > Gondorian scribe with less training in historical linguistics (and
          > who was young enough not to remember the former pronunciations!)
          > might not.
          >

          I think that the supposed scribe in that case was a "Hobbit"; not
          Bilbo, maybe Frodo, or even a later hand of the 4th age.
        • Arden R. Smith
          ... That is a very reasonable assumption, and you are most likely quite correct. -- ******************************************************************** Arden
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
            Laurifindil wrote:

            >I think that the supposed scribe in that case was a "Hobbit"; not
            >Bilbo, maybe Frodo, or even a later hand of the 4th age.

            That is a very reasonable assumption, and you are most likely quite correct.

            --
            ********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
            "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
            "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

            --Lewis Carroll,
            _Through the Looking-glass_
            ********************************************************************
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