Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [elfscript] Vala vs. wilya

Expand Messages
  • Carl F. Hostetter
    On 6/7/02 4:12 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... Of course, it s by no means certain that the two _úra_s, with distinct meanings and
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 7, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      On 6/7/02 4:12 AM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
      wrote:

      > Probably. It may be noted that according to a recent VT, the adjective
      > _úra_ listed in this entry in Etym later came to mean "nasty" instead (with
      > a new derivation: _the negative element _ú-_ + the adjectival ending _-ra_
      > rather than _úr-_ = strengthened form of UR + the simplest adjectival
      > ending _-a_).

      Of course, it's by no means certain that the two _úra_s, with distinct
      meanings and derivations, didn't coexist.

      > (and CFH cited the full ending _-lve_ in an Elfling message some time ago).

      That should have been *_-lve_. A lazy citation on my part.

      > Any thoughts?

      Good questions all. The _w_ vs. _v_ question was one that Tolkien revisited
      frequently over the decades, and there is much vacillation in evidence.


      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • laurifindil
      ... adjective ... instead (with ... ending _-ra_ ... adjectival ... distinct ... time ago). ... revisited ... evidence. ... And the word Vanya shows it...
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 7, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
        > On 6/7/02 4:12 AM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@n...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > Probably. It may be noted that according to a recent VT, the
        adjective
        > > _úra_ listed in this entry in Etym later came to mean "nasty"
        instead (with
        > > a new derivation: _the negative element _ú-_ + the adjectival
        ending _-ra_
        > > rather than _úr-_ = strengthened form of UR + the simplest
        adjectival
        > > ending _-a_).
        >
        > Of course, it's by no means certain that the two _úra_s, with
        distinct
        > meanings and derivations, didn't coexist.
        >
        > > (and CFH cited the full ending _-lve_ in an Elfling message some
        time ago).
        >
        > That should have been *_-lve_. A lazy citation on my part.
        >
        > > Any thoughts?
        >
        > Good questions all. The _w_ vs. _v_ question was one that Tolkien
        revisited
        > frequently over the decades, and there is much vacillation in
        evidence.
        >

        And the word "Vanya" shows it...
      • Arden R. Smith
        ... It s not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically, but they didn t
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

          >I am not sure
          >whether the Namárie transcript in RGEO is entirely "reliable": As was
          >pointed out already in _Introduction to Elvish_, the word _hísie_ is not
          >spelt the way it should be according to the rules Tolkien set out elsewhere
          >(silme being used instead of súle, though this _s_ comes from earlier
          >_th_). So did Tolkien forget his own rules once again when he spelt _vanwa_
          >with an initial vala?

          It's not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not
          absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically,
          but they didn't *need* to be.

          It would be interesting to know who the supposed scribe of the RGEO
          version of "Namárie" was. A Noldorin loremaster would presumably
          have used the "correct" etymological spellings, but a Telerin or
          Gondorian scribe with less training in historical linguistics (and
          who was young enough not to remember the former pronunciations!)
          might not.

          --
          ********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

          --Lewis Carroll,
          _Through the Looking-glass_
          ********************************************************************
        • laurifindil
          ... ... Tolkien had quite a good memory. Anyone familiar with the Middle Ages knows the scribal error . ... I think that the supposed scribe in that
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
            >

            <snip>

            >
            > It's not that Tolkien forgot his rules, but that the rules were not
            > absolute. Words like _hísie_ and _noldo_ were spelt etymologically,
            > but they didn't *need* to be.

            Tolkien had quite a good memory.
            Anyone familiar with the Middle Ages knows the "scribal error".

            > It would be interesting to know who the supposed scribe of the RGEO
            > version of "Namárie" was. A Noldorin loremaster would presumably
            > have used the "correct" etymological spellings, but a Telerin or
            > Gondorian scribe with less training in historical linguistics (and
            > who was young enough not to remember the former pronunciations!)
            > might not.
            >

            I think that the supposed scribe in that case was a "Hobbit"; not
            Bilbo, maybe Frodo, or even a later hand of the 4th age.
          • Arden R. Smith
            ... That is a very reasonable assumption, and you are most likely quite correct. -- ******************************************************************** Arden
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 8, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Laurifindil wrote:

              >I think that the supposed scribe in that case was a "Hobbit"; not
              >Bilbo, maybe Frodo, or even a later hand of the 4th age.

              That is a very reasonable assumption, and you are most likely quite correct.

              --
              ********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

              --Lewis Carroll,
              _Through the Looking-glass_
              ********************************************************************
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.