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Re: [elfscript] Re: the use of tengwa 'anna'

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  • Gildor Inglorion
    teithant laurifindil ... I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta ... * .. and i think i manage to be calm :) I think my definition on the name
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 5, 2002
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      teithant laurifindil

      > > * if i remember well, anna was used as a carrier
      > with
      > > words beginning with a vowel, thus anna too..
      >
      > ? You don't. ? :(

      I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta
      :)))

      > I know these sites... and if they are of some use
      > for the newbies,
      > the questions I'm asking are not. I have been stying
      > these problems
      > for about twenty years now.
      > Please try to be stay a little "calm"...

      * .. and i think i manage to be calm :)
      I think my definition on the name "anna" under
      "tengwar of Feanor" discusses this riddle.. i explain
      that anna was used as a carrier at least initially
      before the usual carrier takes its place (both were
      used for "3", the latter in the Rumilian system).. i
      wonder what more questions you have

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    • Arden R. Smith
      ... These uses are of course established in the published material. For those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2 to Noldorin
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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        Laurifindil wrote:

        >The tengwa <anna>, if I understand its use correctly, was not in
        >Quenya used for the sound _nn_ but according to its _meaning_: "as a
        >gift": it was a 'special carrier' for a lost "consonant", mainly _gh_,
        >and later [in the fictional time of Me] as a "carrier" for two
        >dots/_y_, as seen in "Nam‡ri" in RGEO.

        These uses are of course established in the published material. For
        those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2
        to "Noldorin words for Language" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 39, p. 17):

        "Faced by the fact that words could exist without consonants, and
        that even according to their analysis of "bases" many such bases had
        no initial consonant, earlier theorists either (a) included in the
        list of _teñgwi_ the basic vowels standing alone, or (b) assumed the
        former presence of what they called a "silent" or "vanished"
        consonant. For this they used the sign (letter) <anna>, originally
        representing [3], which had in fact (as they knew) once existed in
        their own _Quenya_ dialect, and explained the relation between many
        words in Ñoldorin that began with a vowel, where the Telerin dialect
        had _g-_."

        The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
        represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
        at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
        incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
        "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
        languages.

        >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
        >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
        >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
        >
        >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
        >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?

        To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
        actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
        however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
        the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
        using the short carrier.

        --
        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • Sébastien Bertho
        Aiya ! I m trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not come to flame war... So please people calm down ! I agree with Carl Hostetter
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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          Aiya !

          I'm trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not
          come to flame war... So please people calm down !

          I agree with Carl Hostetter when he asked Gildor to acknowlegde his sources
          for his "Quenta Eldatencelion" : this is not off topic because the work
          discussed deals strictly with the topic of this list and is of great use for
          people studying Tolkien's scripts. It must be said that all that we know now
          about Sarati, the Rúmilian script, is due to Arden Smith and the long and
          wonderful job he has done, especially in the last Parma Eldalamberon. And if
          Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely based on Helge's work in
          Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

          If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should perhaps imagine someone
          citing many extracts or deductions from his own work without citing him at
          all... ;-)

          I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work : as Laurifindil said
          it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !). The major problem with
          this work (at least the last version I've seen, I didn't look at the updated
          one) is that it lacks a really scholary approach : there is almost no
          references to the sources and in many cases we don't know where come the
          informations. Do they come from Tolkien or are they only deductions and
          theories ? And in the latter case, who made these deductions ?

          Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with the "Númenórian mode"
          presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my friend had to write to Gildor
          to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa Star... More, on this list
          Gildor explained that some of the informations appearing in his work came
          from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to present this kind of
          information without seeking the real sources or without crediting the people
          who made these theories or deductions. And it's really too bad, because I
          think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but it could a much better
          work with only a little more scholarship and by giving all the references
          needed.

          Namárië.

          Sébastien
        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant Sébastien_Bertho ... it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and also on Ryszard Derdzinsky s attempt
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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            teithant Sιbastien_Bertho

            > Parma Eldalamberon. And if
            > Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely
            > based on Helge's work in
            > Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

            <boring "apologetic" reply following>

            it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and
            also on Ryszard Derdzinsky's attempt of Valaquenta
            (did i spell his name wrong this time?).. those two
            also helped me with their oppinions and are credited..

            > If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should
            > perhaps imagine someone
            > citing many extracts or deductions from his own work
            > without citing him at
            > all... ;-)

            I havent any work by him.. could you direct me please?
            :)

            > I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work
            > : as Laurifindil said
            > it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !).

            nice to hear that.. i dont think it's any good for a
            practical guide for newbies (and the tehtar are
            mentioned separately) since it is concentrated on
            historical evolution... it attempts to shed light on
            the Amanya mode and those obscure matters like the
            spelling of Anna and Yanta through assumptions and
            theoretical analysis

            > The major problem with
            > this work (at least the last version I've seen, I
            > didn't look at the updated
            > one)

            * the last is 1.5 i think :)

            > is that it lacks a really scholary approach :
            > there is almost no
            > references to the sources and in many cases we don't
            > know where come the
            > informations.

            * i intented it to be a pure text.. the deductions i
            represent are compilation of sources according to my
            judgement and not a scholary approach... i say that
            perhaps _yanta_ was spelled with Yanta, but I make
            clear it's a "perhaps" deducted from the letter's
            name, and I also have question marks before some
            tengwar spellings leaving the rest to the reader's
            judgement...

            I think my usage of English (and thinking) is quite
            confused (and confusing) and it would be far worse if
            I added references... my deductions are "internatl"
            and it would be also difficult for me to make
            deductions out of exact references quoted! I would
            have to refer to them repeatedly..

            I preferred not to follow all the time a descriptive
            way of thinking like Helge did in his course ("in xxxx
            we encounter the form xxxx so the future tense of xxxx
            must be..." :)) I didnt want it to be a course on
            tengwar history...

            >Do they come from Tolkien or are they
            > only deductions and
            > theories ? And in the latter case, who made these
            > deductions ?

            I think I make clear which ones are deductions
            phrasally (repeated use of "would" and "should" :))..
            the text is a mirror of my own understanding which
            comes from combination of my and the aforementioned
            people's deductions..

            for example in the awful and outdated version that
            still exists in Gwaith ( :) ), i have separated the
            Certhas periods as presented in Introduction to Elvish
            and introduced the term "Angerthas Eregion".. where
            should i mention that? Later Daniel Andries explained
            me the commonly adopted perception and i replaced the
            apocryphal term "Angerthas Eregion" with "Angerthas
            Daeron" (which in that version belonged to an earlier
            period), and I shifted the periods up re-separating
            them according to my judgement...

            > Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with
            > the "Nϊmenσrian mode"
            > presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my
            > friend had to write to Gildor
            > to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa
            > Star...

            * as far as i know this mode is attested in one word
            only in SD but it's clear it was used in Numenor (and
            similary Lisa redirected me to that page of the
            book)..

            because we (I) dont know much about this mode, thats
            why i didnt analyse it explicitly... if i would, i
            would also mention the deductions

            > More, on this list
            > Gildor explained that some of the informations
            > appearing in his work came
            > from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to
            > present this kind of
            > information without seeking the real sources or
            > without crediting the people
            > who made these theories or deductions.

            Well i dont have the original VT's.. i know that the
            Sarati were first mentioned in a VT issue, but
            although the name Arden Smith is mentioned in Amanye
            Tenceli, i didn't know that person and how he
            contributed... I was based only to the information of
            that page that was quite pure and plain...

            > And it's
            > really too bad, because I
            > think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but
            > it could a much better
            > work with only a little more scholarship and by
            > giving all the references
            > needed.

            * thank you, i find it very hard to fit all the
            references in that "prose" text but i will do my best

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          • laurifindil
            ... I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to my many questions.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 7, 2002
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              --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

              <snip>

              I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to
              my many questions.
            • laurifindil
              ... ... Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 7, 2002
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                --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                >

                <snip>

                >
                > The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
                > represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
                > at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
                > incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
                > "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
                > languages.

                Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                HAN- or 3AN-.

                Eldar thought that the "a" in anna was a "racine tengwe" and "For this
                purpuse it was not necessary to distinguish between true 'loss' and
                'omission'". The "meaning" of the tengwa, "gift", is also appropriate
                for its use.

                > >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
                > >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
                > >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
                > >
                > >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
                > >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?
                >
                > To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
                > actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
                > however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
                > the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
                > using the short carrier.

                It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                _anna_ may I ask?

                As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.
              • Arden R. Smith
                ... In most instances it s implied rather than stated, but on one page of rough notes it s clear that this is the case. ... It was then used for /y/, as in the
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 8, 2002
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                  Laurifindil wrote:

                  >Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                  >another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                  >HAN- or 3AN-.

                  In most instances it's implied rather than stated, but on one page of
                  rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                  >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                  >_anna_ may I ask?

                  It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                  Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.

                  >As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                  >written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                  >e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.

                  In that particular example, the a-tehta was omitted above the doubled
                  númen, but yes, the initial vowel was written as a-tehta over a short
                  carrier. The presence of an etymological [3] is not implied in this
                  example.

                  This ties in with the "Vala vs. wilya" thread. If the scribe of the
                  RGEO "Namárie" had used etymological spellings, he should also have
                  used anna rather than the short carrier in _aldaron_, since _alda_
                  derives from PQ _*galadaa_.

                  --
                  ********************************************************************
                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                  --Lewis Carroll,
                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                  ********************************************************************
                • Gildor Inglorion
                  teithant Arden R. Smith ... wouldn t Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then? ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 9, 2002
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                    teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                    > In most instances it's implied rather than stated,
                    > but on one page of
                    > rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                    wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?


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                  • Arden R. Smith
                    ... Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that. -- ******************************************************************** Arden R.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                      Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                      >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?

                      Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that.

                      --
                      ********************************************************************
                      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                      "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                      "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                      "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                      --Lewis Carroll,
                      _Through the Looking-glass_
                      ********************************************************************
                    • Gildor Inglorion
                      teithant Arden R. Smith ... you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where those notes can be found?
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                        teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                        > >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?
                        >
                        > Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that
                        > Tolkien realized that.

                        you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where
                        those notes can be found?

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                      • Arden R. Smith
                        ... Perhaps. There s often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind about something. He
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                          Gildor wrote:

                          >you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake?

                          Perhaps. There's often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien
                          realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind
                          about something. He often changed his mind about something and then
                          had to deal with all the difficulties that would arise out of that.
                          I'm just saying that Tolkien realized that if _anna_ once began with
                          [3] (presumably < *[g], though this is not explicitly stated), then
                          _ónen_ must begin with [g].

                          >where
                          >those notes can be found?

                          They are at present still unpublished.

                          --
                          ********************************************************************
                          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                          --Lewis Carroll,
                          _Through the Looking-glass_
                          ********************************************************************
                        • laurifindil
                          ... ... use of ... Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil and that is what is meant with the use of the for that
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 12, 2002
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                            --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Laurifindil wrote:
                            >

                            <snip>

                            > >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the
                            use of
                            > >_anna_ may I ask?
                            >
                            > It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                            > Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.
                            >

                            Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                            and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                            was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.
                          • Arden R. Smith
                            ... It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant by
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
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                              Laurifindil wrote:

                              >Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                              >and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                              >was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.

                              It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                              by <'> as the transcription of the Westron value of wilya, as far as
                              I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a glottal stop, a smooth
                              breathing, or a marker of hiatus.

                              --
                              ********************************************************************
                              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                              --Lewis Carroll,
                              _Through the Looking-glass_
                              ********************************************************************
                            • Alf Gandson
                              Arden R. Smith teithant: ... by
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                Arden R. Smith teithant:

                                <snip>

                                >Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                                by <'>; as the transcription of the Westron value of
                                wilya, as far as I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a
                                glottal stop, a smooth breathing, or a marker of
                                hiatus.

                                *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                voiceless one?

                                *I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

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                              • John Cowan
                                ... The term smooth breathing refers to the mark used in older Greek script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It is purely
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                  =?iso-8859-1?q?Alf=20Gandson?= scripsit:

                                  > *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                  > smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                  > voiceless one?

                                  The term "smooth breathing" refers to the mark used in older Greek
                                  script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It
                                  is purely orthographical and never has represented any sound whatever.
                                  In Modern Greek, [h] has fallen as well, and the new orthography
                                  has discarded both smooth (silent) and rough (officially [h], but
                                  actually also silent) breathing marks.

                                  --
                                  John Cowan <jcowan@...> http://www.reutershealth.com
                                  I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                                  han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_
                                • Arden R. Smith
                                  ... This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound, represented by a
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                    Alf Gandson wrote:

                                    >*I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                    >smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                    >voiceless one?

                                    This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with
                                    an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound,
                                    represented by a backwards apostrophe) or a smooth breathing,
                                    represented by a normal apostrophe, which has no real phonetic value
                                    other than "absence of [h]". This was just speculation on my part,
                                    and I don't really believe that this is what Tolkien meant by <'>.

                                    >*I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                    >Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                    >stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                    >due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                    >Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                                    I would agree that the glottal stop is the most likely value of
                                    Westron <'>, especially given the use of <'> to represent a glottal
                                    stop in Khuzdul, but there doesn't appear to be any explicit
                                    statement by Tolkien to that effect.

                                    I failed to mention in my last post that the value of Westron <'>
                                    could also be purely etymological, representing some consonantal
                                    sound that was no longer pronounced in Third Age Common Speech.
                                    Unfortunately, we don't know very much about the phonological
                                    development of Westron from Adûnaic.

                                    It seems unlikely, however, that it would represent the /3/ or /?/ of
                                    Adûnaic. Lowdham's report states that the /3/ of archaic Adunaic
                                    later disappeared in all positions, lengthening a preceding short
                                    vowel when it was lost at the end of a word. Archaic /?/ presumably
                                    disappeared very early, according to Lowdham, and furthermore "had no
                                    sign in Adunaic script" (_Sauron Defeated_, pp. 419-20). Thus these
                                    sounds would already have vanished before the Downfall, so it is
                                    unlikely that the mortal races of Middle-earth would have preserved
                                    them in orthography more than three millennia later.

                                    --
                                    ********************************************************************
                                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                    "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                    "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                    "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                    --Lewis Carroll,
                                    _Through the Looking-glass_
                                    ********************************************************************
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