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Re: [elfscript] the use of tengwa 'anna'

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... I thought that might be the case. In fact, it appears to me that your work is based on an article by Helge Fauskanger in _Athelas_. An article in which
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 4 5:22 PM
      On 6/4/02 8:16 PM, "Gildor Inglorion" <elfiness@...> wrote:

      > * oh yes.. i credited Rumil but not Arden Smith :)))
      >
      > not that i know him at all, since the informations i
      > have come second hand, but of course I will add some
      > aknowledgments to those who helped me with the
      > information... good think you provided his name

      I thought that might be the case. In fact, it appears to me that your work
      is based on an article by Helge Fauskanger in _Athelas_. An article in which
      Arden Smith's name is mentioned not once. Imagine that.

      Thank you for your consideration of my request. And if I'm right that your
      presentation is based on Helge's, you ought also to at least credit him as
      well (and if it's closely based, you should ask for his permission).


      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • laurifindil
      ... ? You don t. ? :( ... I know these sites... and if they are of some use for the newbies, the questions I m asking are not. I have been stying these
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 5 4:24 AM
        --- In elfscript@y..., Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...> wrote:
        > teithant laurifindil
        >
        > > But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as
        > > the name of that
        > > tengwar -- could be written according to the
        > > "original" Quenya mode
        > > (original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
        >
        > * if i remember well, anna was used as a carrier with
        > words beginning with a vowel, thus anna too..

        ? You don't. ? :(

        > the
        > reasons are explained in Q&E App D and i have
        > summarised them in my Quenta Eldatencelion.. an old
        > version of which can be found in the Gwaith and an
        > updated (But incomplete) on line version in
        > http://gildor.freepage.gr/eet.html (Sindarin version:
        > ../set.html) :)

        I know these sites... and if they are of some use for the newbies,
        the questions I'm asking are not. I have been stying these problems
        for about twenty years now.
        Please try to be stay a little "calm"...
      • laurifindil
        ... would know ... Arden ... Can t we ... the ... This is off topic.And what on Earth this has to do with my question about *feanorian* use of anna??? :( If
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 5 4:28 AM
          --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
          > Is it too much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We
          would know
          > _nothing_ about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of
          Arden
          > Smith in the pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma Eldalamberon_.
          Can't we
          > repay him just a little by crediting his work in presentations of
          the
          > alphabet of Rúmil? Is that _really_ too much to ask?
          >

          This is off topic.And what on Earth this has to do with my question
          about *feanorian* use of anna??? :(
          If you have greaviance with people use their private e-mail, not a
          public forum, thank you.
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... No it isn t. ... Nothing. That s why I wasn t replying to you. I was replying to Gildor. ... This is not about grievance. It is about credit where credit
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 5 4:35 AM
            On 6/5/02 7:28 AM, "laurifindil" <ejk@...> wrote:

            > --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote: Is it too
            > much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We would know _nothing_
            > about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of Arden Smith in the
            > pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma Eldalamberon_. Can't we repay him just a
            > little by crediting his work in presentations of the alphabet of Rúmil? Is
            > that _really_ too much to ask?
            >
            >
            > This is off topic.
            >
            No it isn't.

            > And what on Earth this has to do with my question about *feanorian* use of
            > anna??? :(
            >
            Nothing. That's why I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to Gildor.

            > If you have greaviance with people use their private e-mail, not a public
            > forum, thank you.
            >
            This is not about grievance. It is about credit where credit is due. (In
            this case, both to Arden Smith and to Helge Fauskanger.)

            Oh, and you would do well to follow your own advice.


            |======================================================================|
            | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
            | |
            | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
            | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
            | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
            | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
            | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
            |======================================================================|
          • Gildor Inglorion
            teithant laurifindil ... I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta ... * .. and i think i manage to be calm :) I think my definition on the name
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 5 3:18 PM
              teithant laurifindil

              > > * if i remember well, anna was used as a carrier
              > with
              > > words beginning with a vowel, thus anna too..
              >
              > ? You don't. ? :(

              I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta
              :)))

              > I know these sites... and if they are of some use
              > for the newbies,
              > the questions I'm asking are not. I have been stying
              > these problems
              > for about twenty years now.
              > Please try to be stay a little "calm"...

              * .. and i think i manage to be calm :)
              I think my definition on the name "anna" under
              "tengwar of Feanor" discusses this riddle.. i explain
              that anna was used as a carrier at least initially
              before the usual carrier takes its place (both were
              used for "3", the latter in the Rumilian system).. i
              wonder what more questions you have

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            • Arden R. Smith
              ... These uses are of course established in the published material. For those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2 to Noldorin
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 6 1:00 AM
                Laurifindil wrote:

                >The tengwa <anna>, if I understand its use correctly, was not in
                >Quenya used for the sound _nn_ but according to its _meaning_: "as a
                >gift": it was a 'special carrier' for a lost "consonant", mainly _gh_,
                >and later [in the fictional time of Me] as a "carrier" for two
                >dots/_y_, as seen in "Nam‡ri" in RGEO.

                These uses are of course established in the published material. For
                those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2
                to "Noldorin words for Language" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 39, p. 17):

                "Faced by the fact that words could exist without consonants, and
                that even according to their analysis of "bases" many such bases had
                no initial consonant, earlier theorists either (a) included in the
                list of _teñgwi_ the basic vowels standing alone, or (b) assumed the
                former presence of what they called a "silent" or "vanished"
                consonant. For this they used the sign (letter) <anna>, originally
                representing [3], which had in fact (as they knew) once existed in
                their own _Quenya_ dialect, and explained the relation between many
                words in Ñoldorin that began with a vowel, where the Telerin dialect
                had _g-_."

                The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
                represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
                at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
                incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
                "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
                languages.

                >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
                >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
                >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
                >
                >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
                >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?

                To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
                actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
                however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
                the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
                using the short carrier.

                --
                ********************************************************************
                Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                --Lewis Carroll,
                _Through the Looking-glass_
                ********************************************************************
              • Sébastien Bertho
                Aiya ! I m trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not come to flame war... So please people calm down ! I agree with Carl Hostetter
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 6 7:08 AM
                  Aiya !

                  I'm trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not
                  come to flame war... So please people calm down !

                  I agree with Carl Hostetter when he asked Gildor to acknowlegde his sources
                  for his "Quenta Eldatencelion" : this is not off topic because the work
                  discussed deals strictly with the topic of this list and is of great use for
                  people studying Tolkien's scripts. It must be said that all that we know now
                  about Sarati, the Rúmilian script, is due to Arden Smith and the long and
                  wonderful job he has done, especially in the last Parma Eldalamberon. And if
                  Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely based on Helge's work in
                  Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

                  If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should perhaps imagine someone
                  citing many extracts or deductions from his own work without citing him at
                  all... ;-)

                  I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work : as Laurifindil said
                  it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !). The major problem with
                  this work (at least the last version I've seen, I didn't look at the updated
                  one) is that it lacks a really scholary approach : there is almost no
                  references to the sources and in many cases we don't know where come the
                  informations. Do they come from Tolkien or are they only deductions and
                  theories ? And in the latter case, who made these deductions ?

                  Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with the "Númenórian mode"
                  presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my friend had to write to Gildor
                  to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa Star... More, on this list
                  Gildor explained that some of the informations appearing in his work came
                  from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to present this kind of
                  information without seeking the real sources or without crediting the people
                  who made these theories or deductions. And it's really too bad, because I
                  think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but it could a much better
                  work with only a little more scholarship and by giving all the references
                  needed.

                  Namárië.

                  Sébastien
                • Gildor Inglorion
                  teithant Sébastien_Bertho ... it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and also on Ryszard Derdzinsky s attempt
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 6 8:12 AM
                    teithant Sιbastien_Bertho

                    > Parma Eldalamberon. And if
                    > Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely
                    > based on Helge's work in
                    > Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

                    <boring "apologetic" reply following>

                    it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and
                    also on Ryszard Derdzinsky's attempt of Valaquenta
                    (did i spell his name wrong this time?).. those two
                    also helped me with their oppinions and are credited..

                    > If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should
                    > perhaps imagine someone
                    > citing many extracts or deductions from his own work
                    > without citing him at
                    > all... ;-)

                    I havent any work by him.. could you direct me please?
                    :)

                    > I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work
                    > : as Laurifindil said
                    > it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !).

                    nice to hear that.. i dont think it's any good for a
                    practical guide for newbies (and the tehtar are
                    mentioned separately) since it is concentrated on
                    historical evolution... it attempts to shed light on
                    the Amanya mode and those obscure matters like the
                    spelling of Anna and Yanta through assumptions and
                    theoretical analysis

                    > The major problem with
                    > this work (at least the last version I've seen, I
                    > didn't look at the updated
                    > one)

                    * the last is 1.5 i think :)

                    > is that it lacks a really scholary approach :
                    > there is almost no
                    > references to the sources and in many cases we don't
                    > know where come the
                    > informations.

                    * i intented it to be a pure text.. the deductions i
                    represent are compilation of sources according to my
                    judgement and not a scholary approach... i say that
                    perhaps _yanta_ was spelled with Yanta, but I make
                    clear it's a "perhaps" deducted from the letter's
                    name, and I also have question marks before some
                    tengwar spellings leaving the rest to the reader's
                    judgement...

                    I think my usage of English (and thinking) is quite
                    confused (and confusing) and it would be far worse if
                    I added references... my deductions are "internatl"
                    and it would be also difficult for me to make
                    deductions out of exact references quoted! I would
                    have to refer to them repeatedly..

                    I preferred not to follow all the time a descriptive
                    way of thinking like Helge did in his course ("in xxxx
                    we encounter the form xxxx so the future tense of xxxx
                    must be..." :)) I didnt want it to be a course on
                    tengwar history...

                    >Do they come from Tolkien or are they
                    > only deductions and
                    > theories ? And in the latter case, who made these
                    > deductions ?

                    I think I make clear which ones are deductions
                    phrasally (repeated use of "would" and "should" :))..
                    the text is a mirror of my own understanding which
                    comes from combination of my and the aforementioned
                    people's deductions..

                    for example in the awful and outdated version that
                    still exists in Gwaith ( :) ), i have separated the
                    Certhas periods as presented in Introduction to Elvish
                    and introduced the term "Angerthas Eregion".. where
                    should i mention that? Later Daniel Andries explained
                    me the commonly adopted perception and i replaced the
                    apocryphal term "Angerthas Eregion" with "Angerthas
                    Daeron" (which in that version belonged to an earlier
                    period), and I shifted the periods up re-separating
                    them according to my judgement...

                    > Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with
                    > the "Nϊmenσrian mode"
                    > presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my
                    > friend had to write to Gildor
                    > to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa
                    > Star...

                    * as far as i know this mode is attested in one word
                    only in SD but it's clear it was used in Numenor (and
                    similary Lisa redirected me to that page of the
                    book)..

                    because we (I) dont know much about this mode, thats
                    why i didnt analyse it explicitly... if i would, i
                    would also mention the deductions

                    > More, on this list
                    > Gildor explained that some of the informations
                    > appearing in his work came
                    > from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to
                    > present this kind of
                    > information without seeking the real sources or
                    > without crediting the people
                    > who made these theories or deductions.

                    Well i dont have the original VT's.. i know that the
                    Sarati were first mentioned in a VT issue, but
                    although the name Arden Smith is mentioned in Amanye
                    Tenceli, i didn't know that person and how he
                    contributed... I was based only to the information of
                    that page that was quite pure and plain...

                    > And it's
                    > really too bad, because I
                    > think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but
                    > it could a much better
                    > work with only a little more scholarship and by
                    > giving all the references
                    > needed.

                    * thank you, i find it very hard to fit all the
                    references in that "prose" text but i will do my best

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                  • laurifindil
                    ... I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to my many questions.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 7 2:29 AM
                      --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

                      <snip>

                      I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to
                      my many questions.
                    • laurifindil
                      ... ... Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 7 10:38 AM
                        --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                        >

                        <snip>

                        >
                        > The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
                        > represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
                        > at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
                        > incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
                        > "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
                        > languages.

                        Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                        another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                        HAN- or 3AN-.

                        Eldar thought that the "a" in anna was a "racine tengwe" and "For this
                        purpuse it was not necessary to distinguish between true 'loss' and
                        'omission'". The "meaning" of the tengwa, "gift", is also appropriate
                        for its use.

                        > >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
                        > >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
                        > >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
                        > >
                        > >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
                        > >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?
                        >
                        > To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
                        > actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
                        > however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
                        > the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
                        > using the short carrier.

                        It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                        _anna_ may I ask?

                        As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                        written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                        e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.
                      • Arden R. Smith
                        ... In most instances it s implied rather than stated, but on one page of rough notes it s clear that this is the case. ... It was then used for /y/, as in the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 8 2:18 AM
                          Laurifindil wrote:

                          >Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                          >another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                          >HAN- or 3AN-.

                          In most instances it's implied rather than stated, but on one page of
                          rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                          >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                          >_anna_ may I ask?

                          It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                          Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.

                          >As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                          >written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                          >e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.

                          In that particular example, the a-tehta was omitted above the doubled
                          númen, but yes, the initial vowel was written as a-tehta over a short
                          carrier. The presence of an etymological [3] is not implied in this
                          example.

                          This ties in with the "Vala vs. wilya" thread. If the scribe of the
                          RGEO "Namárie" had used etymological spellings, he should also have
                          used anna rather than the short carrier in _aldaron_, since _alda_
                          derives from PQ _*galadaa_.

                          --
                          ********************************************************************
                          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                          --Lewis Carroll,
                          _Through the Looking-glass_
                          ********************************************************************
                        • Gildor Inglorion
                          teithant Arden R. Smith ... wouldn t Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then? ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 9 1:23 AM
                            teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                            > In most instances it's implied rather than stated,
                            > but on one page of
                            > rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                            wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?


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                          • Arden R. Smith
                            ... Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that. -- ******************************************************************** Arden R.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 10 12:46 AM
                              Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                              >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?

                              Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that.

                              --
                              ********************************************************************
                              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                              --Lewis Carroll,
                              _Through the Looking-glass_
                              ********************************************************************
                            • Gildor Inglorion
                              teithant Arden R. Smith ... you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where those notes can be found?
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 10 6:48 AM
                                teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                                > >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?
                                >
                                > Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that
                                > Tolkien realized that.

                                you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where
                                those notes can be found?

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                              • Arden R. Smith
                                ... Perhaps. There s often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind about something. He
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 10 11:57 PM
                                  Gildor wrote:

                                  >you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake?

                                  Perhaps. There's often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien
                                  realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind
                                  about something. He often changed his mind about something and then
                                  had to deal with all the difficulties that would arise out of that.
                                  I'm just saying that Tolkien realized that if _anna_ once began with
                                  [3] (presumably < *[g], though this is not explicitly stated), then
                                  _ónen_ must begin with [g].

                                  >where
                                  >those notes can be found?

                                  They are at present still unpublished.

                                  --
                                  ********************************************************************
                                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                  --Lewis Carroll,
                                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                                  ********************************************************************
                                • laurifindil
                                  ... ... use of ... Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil and that is what is meant with the use of the for that
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 12 8:07 AM
                                    --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Laurifindil wrote:
                                    >

                                    <snip>

                                    > >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the
                                    use of
                                    > >_anna_ may I ask?
                                    >
                                    > It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                                    > Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.
                                    >

                                    Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                                    and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                                    was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.
                                  • Arden R. Smith
                                    ... It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant by
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 13 10:53 PM
                                      Laurifindil wrote:

                                      >Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                                      >and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                                      >was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.

                                      It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                                      by <'> as the transcription of the Westron value of wilya, as far as
                                      I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a glottal stop, a smooth
                                      breathing, or a marker of hiatus.

                                      --
                                      ********************************************************************
                                      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                      "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                      "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                      "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                      --Lewis Carroll,
                                      _Through the Looking-glass_
                                      ********************************************************************
                                    • Alf Gandson
                                      Arden R. Smith teithant: ... by
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 14 9:48 AM
                                        Arden R. Smith teithant:

                                        <snip>

                                        >Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                                        by <'>; as the transcription of the Westron value of
                                        wilya, as far as I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a
                                        glottal stop, a smooth breathing, or a marker of
                                        hiatus.

                                        *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                        smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                        voiceless one?

                                        *I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                        Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                        stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                        due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                        Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                                        Cobertura especial de la Copa Mundial de la FIFA Corea-Japón 2002, sólo en Yahoo! Deportes:
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                                      • John Cowan
                                        ... The term smooth breathing refers to the mark used in older Greek script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It is purely
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 14 9:54 AM
                                          =?iso-8859-1?q?Alf=20Gandson?= scripsit:

                                          > *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                          > smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                          > voiceless one?

                                          The term "smooth breathing" refers to the mark used in older Greek
                                          script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It
                                          is purely orthographical and never has represented any sound whatever.
                                          In Modern Greek, [h] has fallen as well, and the new orthography
                                          has discarded both smooth (silent) and rough (officially [h], but
                                          actually also silent) breathing marks.

                                          --
                                          John Cowan <jcowan@...> http://www.reutershealth.com
                                          I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                                          han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_
                                        • Arden R. Smith
                                          ... This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound, represented by a
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 14 10:38 AM
                                            Alf Gandson wrote:

                                            >*I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                            >smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                            >voiceless one?

                                            This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with
                                            an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound,
                                            represented by a backwards apostrophe) or a smooth breathing,
                                            represented by a normal apostrophe, which has no real phonetic value
                                            other than "absence of [h]". This was just speculation on my part,
                                            and I don't really believe that this is what Tolkien meant by <'>.

                                            >*I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                            >Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                            >stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                            >due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                            >Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                                            I would agree that the glottal stop is the most likely value of
                                            Westron <'>, especially given the use of <'> to represent a glottal
                                            stop in Khuzdul, but there doesn't appear to be any explicit
                                            statement by Tolkien to that effect.

                                            I failed to mention in my last post that the value of Westron <'>
                                            could also be purely etymological, representing some consonantal
                                            sound that was no longer pronounced in Third Age Common Speech.
                                            Unfortunately, we don't know very much about the phonological
                                            development of Westron from Adûnaic.

                                            It seems unlikely, however, that it would represent the /3/ or /?/ of
                                            Adûnaic. Lowdham's report states that the /3/ of archaic Adunaic
                                            later disappeared in all positions, lengthening a preceding short
                                            vowel when it was lost at the end of a word. Archaic /?/ presumably
                                            disappeared very early, according to Lowdham, and furthermore "had no
                                            sign in Adunaic script" (_Sauron Defeated_, pp. 419-20). Thus these
                                            sounds would already have vanished before the Downfall, so it is
                                            unlikely that the mortal races of Middle-earth would have preserved
                                            them in orthography more than three millennia later.

                                            --
                                            ********************************************************************
                                            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                            "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                            "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                            "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                            --Lewis Carroll,
                                            _Through the Looking-glass_
                                            ********************************************************************
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