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Re: [elfscript] the use of tengwa 'anna'

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    Is it too much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We would know _nothing_ about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of Arden Smith in
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 4, 2002
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      Is it too much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We would know
      _nothing_ about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of Arden
      Smith in the pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma Eldalamberon_. Can't we
      repay him just a little by crediting his work in presentations of the
      alphabet of Rúmil? Is that _really_ too much to ask?

      ------------------------------

      On 6/4/02 7:01 PM, "Gildor Inglorion" <elfiness@...> wrote:

      > http://gildor.freepage.gr/eet.html


      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • Gildor Inglorion
      teithant Carl F. Hostetter ... * oh yes.. i credited Rumil but not Arden Smith :))) not that i know him at all, since the informations i have come second
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 4, 2002
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        teithant "Carl F. Hostetter"

        > sources? We would know
        > _nothing_ about Rϊmilian without the exacting and
        > exemplary work of Arden
        > Smith in the pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma
        > Eldalamberon_. Can't we
        > repay him just a little by crediting his work in
        > presentations of the
        > alphabet of Rϊmil?

        * oh yes.. i credited Rumil but not Arden Smith :)))

        not that i know him at all, since the informations i
        have come second hand, but of course I will add some
        aknowledgments to those who helped me with the
        information... good think you provided his name

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      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... I thought that might be the case. In fact, it appears to me that your work is based on an article by Helge Fauskanger in _Athelas_. An article in which
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 4, 2002
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          On 6/4/02 8:16 PM, "Gildor Inglorion" <elfiness@...> wrote:

          > * oh yes.. i credited Rumil but not Arden Smith :)))
          >
          > not that i know him at all, since the informations i
          > have come second hand, but of course I will add some
          > aknowledgments to those who helped me with the
          > information... good think you provided his name

          I thought that might be the case. In fact, it appears to me that your work
          is based on an article by Helge Fauskanger in _Athelas_. An article in which
          Arden Smith's name is mentioned not once. Imagine that.

          Thank you for your consideration of my request. And if I'm right that your
          presentation is based on Helge's, you ought also to at least credit him as
          well (and if it's closely based, you should ask for his permission).


          |======================================================================|
          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
          | |
          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
          |======================================================================|
        • laurifindil
          ... ? You don t. ? :( ... I know these sites... and if they are of some use for the newbies, the questions I m asking are not. I have been stying these
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 5, 2002
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            --- In elfscript@y..., Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...> wrote:
            > teithant laurifindil
            >
            > > But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as
            > > the name of that
            > > tengwar -- could be written according to the
            > > "original" Quenya mode
            > > (original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
            >
            > * if i remember well, anna was used as a carrier with
            > words beginning with a vowel, thus anna too..

            ? You don't. ? :(

            > the
            > reasons are explained in Q&E App D and i have
            > summarised them in my Quenta Eldatencelion.. an old
            > version of which can be found in the Gwaith and an
            > updated (But incomplete) on line version in
            > http://gildor.freepage.gr/eet.html (Sindarin version:
            > ../set.html) :)

            I know these sites... and if they are of some use for the newbies,
            the questions I'm asking are not. I have been stying these problems
            for about twenty years now.
            Please try to be stay a little "calm"...
          • laurifindil
            ... would know ... Arden ... Can t we ... the ... This is off topic.And what on Earth this has to do with my question about *feanorian* use of anna??? :( If
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 5, 2002
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              --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote:
              > Is it too much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We
              would know
              > _nothing_ about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of
              Arden
              > Smith in the pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma Eldalamberon_.
              Can't we
              > repay him just a little by crediting his work in presentations of
              the
              > alphabet of Rúmil? Is that _really_ too much to ask?
              >

              This is off topic.And what on Earth this has to do with my question
              about *feanorian* use of anna??? :(
              If you have greaviance with people use their private e-mail, not a
              public forum, thank you.
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              ... No it isn t. ... Nothing. That s why I wasn t replying to you. I was replying to Gildor. ... This is not about grievance. It is about credit where credit
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 5, 2002
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                On 6/5/02 7:28 AM, "laurifindil" <ejk@...> wrote:

                > --- In elfscript@y..., "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@e...> wrote: Is it too
                > much to ask that people acknowledge their sources? We would know _nothing_
                > about Rúmilian without the exacting and exemplary work of Arden Smith in the
                > pages of _Vinyar Tengwar_ and _Parma Eldalamberon_. Can't we repay him just a
                > little by crediting his work in presentations of the alphabet of Rúmil? Is
                > that _really_ too much to ask?
                >
                >
                > This is off topic.
                >
                No it isn't.

                > And what on Earth this has to do with my question about *feanorian* use of
                > anna??? :(
                >
                Nothing. That's why I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to Gildor.

                > If you have greaviance with people use their private e-mail, not a public
                > forum, thank you.
                >
                This is not about grievance. It is about credit where credit is due. (In
                this case, both to Arden Smith and to Helge Fauskanger.)

                Oh, and you would do well to follow your own advice.


                |======================================================================|
                | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                | |
                | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                |======================================================================|
              • Gildor Inglorion
                teithant laurifindil ... I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta ... * .. and i think i manage to be calm :) I think my definition on the name
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 5, 2002
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                  teithant laurifindil

                  > > * if i remember well, anna was used as a carrier
                  > with
                  > > words beginning with a vowel, thus anna too..
                  >
                  > ? You don't. ? :(

                  I think I do.. at least thats what i say in my quenta
                  :)))

                  > I know these sites... and if they are of some use
                  > for the newbies,
                  > the questions I'm asking are not. I have been stying
                  > these problems
                  > for about twenty years now.
                  > Please try to be stay a little "calm"...

                  * .. and i think i manage to be calm :)
                  I think my definition on the name "anna" under
                  "tengwar of Feanor" discusses this riddle.. i explain
                  that anna was used as a carrier at least initially
                  before the usual carrier takes its place (both were
                  used for "3", the latter in the Rumilian system).. i
                  wonder what more questions you have

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                • Arden R. Smith
                  ... These uses are of course established in the published material. For those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2 to Noldorin
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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                    Laurifindil wrote:

                    >The tengwa <anna>, if I understand its use correctly, was not in
                    >Quenya used for the sound _nn_ but according to its _meaning_: "as a
                    >gift": it was a 'special carrier' for a lost "consonant", mainly _gh_,
                    >and later [in the fictional time of Me] as a "carrier" for two
                    >dots/_y_, as seen in "Nam‡ri" in RGEO.

                    These uses are of course established in the published material. For
                    those of you who might not be aware of this, Tolkien writes in Note 2
                    to "Noldorin words for Language" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 39, p. 17):

                    "Faced by the fact that words could exist without consonants, and
                    that even according to their analysis of "bases" many such bases had
                    no initial consonant, earlier theorists either (a) included in the
                    list of _teñgwi_ the basic vowels standing alone, or (b) assumed the
                    former presence of what they called a "silent" or "vanished"
                    consonant. For this they used the sign (letter) <anna>, originally
                    representing [3], which had in fact (as they knew) once existed in
                    their own _Quenya_ dialect, and explained the relation between many
                    words in Ñoldorin that began with a vowel, where the Telerin dialect
                    had _g-_."

                    The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
                    represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
                    at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
                    incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
                    "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
                    languages.

                    >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
                    >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
                    >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
                    >
                    >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
                    >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?

                    To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
                    actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
                    however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
                    the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
                    using the short carrier.

                    --
                    ********************************************************************
                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                    "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                    "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                    "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                    --Lewis Carroll,
                    _Through the Looking-glass_
                    ********************************************************************
                  • Sébastien Bertho
                    Aiya ! I m trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not come to flame war... So please people calm down ! I agree with Carl Hostetter
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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                      Aiya !

                      I'm trying to come in this interesting discussion, but I hope it will not
                      come to flame war... So please people calm down !

                      I agree with Carl Hostetter when he asked Gildor to acknowlegde his sources
                      for his "Quenta Eldatencelion" : this is not off topic because the work
                      discussed deals strictly with the topic of this list and is of great use for
                      people studying Tolkien's scripts. It must be said that all that we know now
                      about Sarati, the Rúmilian script, is due to Arden Smith and the long and
                      wonderful job he has done, especially in the last Parma Eldalamberon. And if
                      Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely based on Helge's work in
                      Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

                      If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should perhaps imagine someone
                      citing many extracts or deductions from his own work without citing him at
                      all... ;-)

                      I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work : as Laurifindil said
                      it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !). The major problem with
                      this work (at least the last version I've seen, I didn't look at the updated
                      one) is that it lacks a really scholary approach : there is almost no
                      references to the sources and in many cases we don't know where come the
                      informations. Do they come from Tolkien or are they only deductions and
                      theories ? And in the latter case, who made these deductions ?

                      Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with the "Númenórian mode"
                      presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my friend had to write to Gildor
                      to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa Star... More, on this list
                      Gildor explained that some of the informations appearing in his work came
                      from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to present this kind of
                      information without seeking the real sources or without crediting the people
                      who made these theories or deductions. And it's really too bad, because I
                      think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but it could a much better
                      work with only a little more scholarship and by giving all the references
                      needed.

                      Namárië.

                      Sébastien
                    • Gildor Inglorion
                      teithant Sébastien_Bertho ... it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and also on Ryszard Derdzinsky s attempt
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 6, 2002
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                        teithant Sιbastien_Bertho

                        > Parma Eldalamberon. And if
                        > Gildor's "Quenta Eldatencelion" is actually closely
                        > based on Helge's work in
                        > Athelas, it should be credited too, naturally.

                        <boring "apologetic" reply following>

                        it was based on Amanye Tenceli by Mans Bjorkman and
                        also on Ryszard Derdzinsky's attempt of Valaquenta
                        (did i spell his name wrong this time?).. those two
                        also helped me with their oppinions and are credited..

                        > If Laurifindil doesn't agree with this, he should
                        > perhaps imagine someone
                        > citing many extracts or deductions from his own work
                        > without citing him at
                        > all... ;-)

                        I havent any work by him.. could you direct me please?
                        :)

                        > I'd like to make another comment about Gildor's work
                        > : as Laurifindil said
                        > it is a good work for newbies (IMOO, not only !).

                        nice to hear that.. i dont think it's any good for a
                        practical guide for newbies (and the tehtar are
                        mentioned separately) since it is concentrated on
                        historical evolution... it attempts to shed light on
                        the Amanya mode and those obscure matters like the
                        spelling of Anna and Yanta through assumptions and
                        theoretical analysis

                        > The major problem with
                        > this work (at least the last version I've seen, I
                        > didn't look at the updated
                        > one)

                        * the last is 1.5 i think :)

                        > is that it lacks a really scholary approach :
                        > there is almost no
                        > references to the sources and in many cases we don't
                        > know where come the
                        > informations.

                        * i intented it to be a pure text.. the deductions i
                        represent are compilation of sources according to my
                        judgement and not a scholary approach... i say that
                        perhaps _yanta_ was spelled with Yanta, but I make
                        clear it's a "perhaps" deducted from the letter's
                        name, and I also have question marks before some
                        tengwar spellings leaving the rest to the reader's
                        judgement...

                        I think my usage of English (and thinking) is quite
                        confused (and confusing) and it would be far worse if
                        I added references... my deductions are "internatl"
                        and it would be also difficult for me to make
                        deductions out of exact references quoted! I would
                        have to refer to them repeatedly..

                        I preferred not to follow all the time a descriptive
                        way of thinking like Helge did in his course ("in xxxx
                        we encounter the form xxxx so the future tense of xxxx
                        must be..." :)) I didnt want it to be a course on
                        tengwar history...

                        >Do they come from Tolkien or are they
                        > only deductions and
                        > theories ? And in the latter case, who made these
                        > deductions ?

                        I think I make clear which ones are deductions
                        phrasally (repeated use of "would" and "should" :))..
                        the text is a mirror of my own understanding which
                        comes from combination of my and the aforementioned
                        people's deductions..

                        for example in the awful and outdated version that
                        still exists in Gwaith ( :) ), i have separated the
                        Certhas periods as presented in Introduction to Elvish
                        and introduced the term "Angerthas Eregion".. where
                        should i mention that? Later Daniel Andries explained
                        me the commonly adopted perception and i replaced the
                        apocryphal term "Angerthas Eregion" with "Angerthas
                        Daeron" (which in that version belonged to an earlier
                        period), and I shifted the periods up re-separating
                        them according to my judgement...

                        > Recently, a friend of mine had some problems with
                        > the "Nϊmenσrian mode"
                        > presented in the "Quenta Eldatencelion" and my
                        > friend had to write to Gildor
                        > to know that it was based on a theory by Lisa
                        > Star...

                        * as far as i know this mode is attested in one word
                        only in SD but it's clear it was used in Numenor (and
                        similary Lisa redirected me to that page of the
                        book)..

                        because we (I) dont know much about this mode, thats
                        why i didnt analyse it explicitly... if i would, i
                        would also mention the deductions

                        > More, on this list
                        > Gildor explained that some of the informations
                        > appearing in his work came
                        > from "second hand"... This is not scholarship to
                        > present this kind of
                        > information without seeking the real sources or
                        > without crediting the people
                        > who made these theories or deductions.

                        Well i dont have the original VT's.. i know that the
                        Sarati were first mentioned in a VT issue, but
                        although the name Arden Smith is mentioned in Amanye
                        Tenceli, i didn't know that person and how he
                        contributed... I was based only to the information of
                        that page that was quite pure and plain...

                        > And it's
                        > really too bad, because I
                        > think the "Quenta Eldatencelion" is a good work, but
                        > it could a much better
                        > work with only a little more scholarship and by
                        > giving all the references
                        > needed.

                        * thank you, i find it very hard to fit all the
                        references in that "prose" text but i will do my best

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                      • laurifindil
                        ... I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to my many questions.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 7, 2002
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                          --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

                          <snip>

                          I would like to thank Arden Smith for his very thoughtful answers to
                          my many questions.
                        • laurifindil
                          ... ... Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 7, 2002
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                            --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                            >

                            <snip>

                            >
                            > The use of this letter, however, does have a phonological basis. It
                            > represents a lost [3] (yogh, representing a voiced velar fricative)
                            > at the beginning of the word _anna_. Such an etymology is of course
                            > incompatible with the derivation from ANA(1)- that we find in the
                            > "Etymologies," but Tolkien was constantly tinkering with his
                            > languages.

                            Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                            another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                            HAN- or 3AN-.

                            Eldar thought that the "a" in anna was a "racine tengwe" and "For this
                            purpuse it was not necessary to distinguish between true 'loss' and
                            'omission'". The "meaning" of the tengwa, "gift", is also appropriate
                            for its use.

                            > >But I cannot figure out how the word _anna_ -- as the name of that
                            > >tengwar -- could be written according to the "original" Quenya mode
                            > >(original inside the fictional time) with an <anna>.
                            > >
                            > >Did Tolkien write in tengwar the Word _anna_ as <anna> + <"double"
                            > >nœmen>? Or in any other way, e.g. not using <anna> at all?
                            >
                            > To the best of my knowledge, there is no example of the word _anna_
                            > actually written by Tolkien with the letter _anna_. There are,
                            > however, examples using _wilya_ (in a mode in which that letter had
                            > the function of _anna_, representing nil < [3]) and also an example
                            > using the short carrier.

                            It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                            _anna_ may I ask?

                            As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                            written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                            e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.
                          • Arden R. Smith
                            ... In most instances it s implied rather than stated, but on one page of rough notes it s clear that this is the case. ... It was then used for /y/, as in the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 8, 2002
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                              Laurifindil wrote:

                              >Do you mean that Tolkien actually stated that the word _anna_ was from
                              >another root/stem than that sated to be ANA(1) in Etymologies? Such as
                              >HAN- or 3AN-.

                              In most instances it's implied rather than stated, but on one page of
                              rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                              >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the use of
                              >_anna_ may I ask?

                              It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                              Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.

                              >As for the use of the short carrier in <anna>, you mean that anna was
                              >written begining with a <short carrier> used as a sign for nil < [3] ?
                              >e.g. <short carrier> + a-tehta + <númen/twice> + a-tehta.

                              In that particular example, the a-tehta was omitted above the doubled
                              númen, but yes, the initial vowel was written as a-tehta over a short
                              carrier. The presence of an etymological [3] is not implied in this
                              example.

                              This ties in with the "Vala vs. wilya" thread. If the scribe of the
                              RGEO "Namárie" had used etymological spellings, he should also have
                              used anna rather than the short carrier in _aldaron_, since _alda_
                              derives from PQ _*galadaa_.

                              --
                              ********************************************************************
                              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                              --Lewis Carroll,
                              _Through the Looking-glass_
                              ********************************************************************
                            • Gildor Inglorion
                              teithant Arden R. Smith ... wouldn t Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then? ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 9, 2002
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                                teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                                > In most instances it's implied rather than stated,
                                > but on one page of
                                > rough notes it's clear that this is the case.

                                wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?


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                              • Arden R. Smith
                                ... Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that. -- ******************************************************************** Arden R.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                                  Gildor Inglorion wrote:

                                  >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?

                                  Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that Tolkien realized that.

                                  --
                                  ********************************************************************
                                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                  --Lewis Carroll,
                                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                                  ********************************************************************
                                • Gildor Inglorion
                                  teithant Arden R. Smith ... you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where those notes can be found?
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                                    teithant "Arden R. Smith"

                                    > >wouldn't Sindarin _oonen_ be _goonen_ then?
                                    >
                                    > Yes indeed, and those same rough notes show that
                                    > Tolkien realized that.

                                    you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake? where
                                    those notes can be found?

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                                  • Arden R. Smith
                                    ... Perhaps. There s often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind about something. He
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 10, 2002
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                                      Gildor wrote:

                                      >you mean that Tolkien realised it was a mistake?

                                      Perhaps. There's often a very blurry distinction between Tolkien
                                      realizing that something was a mistake and Tolkien changing his mind
                                      about something. He often changed his mind about something and then
                                      had to deal with all the difficulties that would arise out of that.
                                      I'm just saying that Tolkien realized that if _anna_ once began with
                                      [3] (presumably < *[g], though this is not explicitly stated), then
                                      _ónen_ must begin with [g].

                                      >where
                                      >those notes can be found?

                                      They are at present still unpublished.

                                      --
                                      ********************************************************************
                                      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                      "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                      "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                      "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                      --Lewis Carroll,
                                      _Through the Looking-glass_
                                      ********************************************************************
                                    • laurifindil
                                      ... ... use of ... Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil and that is what is meant with the use of the for that
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 12, 2002
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                                        --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Laurifindil wrote:
                                        >

                                        <snip>

                                        > >It that particular mode (_wilya_ = nil < [3]) what was then the
                                        use of
                                        > >_anna_ may I ask?
                                        >
                                        > It was then used for /y/, as in the mode for Westron and the Black
                                        > Speech in _An Introduction to Elvish_, p. 247.
                                        >

                                        Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                                        and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                                        was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.
                                      • Arden R. Smith
                                        ... It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant by
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 13, 2002
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                                          Laurifindil wrote:

                                          >Would you say that the tengwa wilya was used in Sôval Phâre for nil
                                          >and that is what is meant with the use of the ' for that tengwa. I
                                          >was wondering it it might no be the ' as in Khuzdul.

                                          It might be. Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                                          by <'> as the transcription of the Westron value of wilya, as far as
                                          I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a glottal stop, a smooth
                                          breathing, or a marker of hiatus.

                                          --
                                          ********************************************************************
                                          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                          --Lewis Carroll,
                                          _Through the Looking-glass_
                                          ********************************************************************
                                        • Alf Gandson
                                          Arden R. Smith teithant: ... by
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                            Arden R. Smith teithant:

                                            <snip>

                                            >Tolkien does not seem to have explained what is meant
                                            by <'>; as the transcription of the Westron value of
                                            wilya, as far as I'm aware. I'd say that it could be a
                                            glottal stop, a smooth breathing, or a marker of
                                            hiatus.

                                            *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                            smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                            voiceless one?

                                            *I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                            Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                            stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                            due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                            Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                                            Cobertura especial de la Copa Mundial de la FIFA Corea-Japón 2002, sólo en Yahoo! Deportes:
                                            http://ar.sports.yahoo.com/fifaworldcup/
                                          • John Cowan
                                            ... The term smooth breathing refers to the mark used in older Greek script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It is purely
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                              =?iso-8859-1?q?Alf=20Gandson?= scripsit:

                                              > *I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                              > smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                              > voiceless one?

                                              The term "smooth breathing" refers to the mark used in older Greek
                                              script to represent the *absence* of [h] on an initial vowel. It
                                              is purely orthographical and never has represented any sound whatever.
                                              In Modern Greek, [h] has fallen as well, and the new orthography
                                              has discarded both smooth (silent) and rough (officially [h], but
                                              actually also silent) breathing marks.

                                              --
                                              John Cowan <jcowan@...> http://www.reutershealth.com
                                              I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                                              han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_
                                            • Arden R. Smith
                                              ... This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound, represented by a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 14, 2002
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                                                Alf Gandson wrote:

                                                >*I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by _a
                                                >smooth breathing_, a voiced h-sound or a normal,
                                                >voiceless one?

                                                This is a term from Greek grammar. Greek words that are written with
                                                an initial vowel begin with either a rough breathing (the [h] sound,
                                                represented by a backwards apostrophe) or a smooth breathing,
                                                represented by a normal apostrophe, which has no real phonetic value
                                                other than "absence of [h]". This was just speculation on my part,
                                                and I don't really believe that this is what Tolkien meant by <'>.

                                                >*I always thought there was a "general agreement" on
                                                >Jim Allan's proposal that vilya represented a glottal
                                                >stop in the Westron mode. Is this thought of mine just
                                                >due to the fact that I'm based on _An Introduction to
                                                >Elvish_ (by Jim Allan)?

                                                I would agree that the glottal stop is the most likely value of
                                                Westron <'>, especially given the use of <'> to represent a glottal
                                                stop in Khuzdul, but there doesn't appear to be any explicit
                                                statement by Tolkien to that effect.

                                                I failed to mention in my last post that the value of Westron <'>
                                                could also be purely etymological, representing some consonantal
                                                sound that was no longer pronounced in Third Age Common Speech.
                                                Unfortunately, we don't know very much about the phonological
                                                development of Westron from Adûnaic.

                                                It seems unlikely, however, that it would represent the /3/ or /?/ of
                                                Adûnaic. Lowdham's report states that the /3/ of archaic Adunaic
                                                later disappeared in all positions, lengthening a preceding short
                                                vowel when it was lost at the end of a word. Archaic /?/ presumably
                                                disappeared very early, according to Lowdham, and furthermore "had no
                                                sign in Adunaic script" (_Sauron Defeated_, pp. 419-20). Thus these
                                                sounds would already have vanished before the Downfall, so it is
                                                unlikely that the mortal races of Middle-earth would have preserved
                                                them in orthography more than three millennia later.

                                                --
                                                ********************************************************************
                                                Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                                "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                                "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                                "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                                --Lewis Carroll,
                                                _Through the Looking-glass_
                                                ********************************************************************
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