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úr (e) and yanta (was: Re: úr >> úre )

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  • laurifindil
    ... can tell).As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in Etymologies from be hot and derivative _œr_ fire to *UR- wide,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 4, 2002
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      --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

      >When _œr_ was first used as a tengwa-name (in the late 1930s, as far >as I=
      can tell).

      As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
      "Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
      large, great" (p. 396).
      Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
      up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?
      Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
      "large" or "fire"?

      > the tengwa to which it was applied in fact represented a vowel, as it >do=
      es in such full modes as the Mode of Beleriand.

      Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
      long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
      sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

      There are Q. Words which start with a short u : ulunde, usque, etc.

      Was that "discrepancy" ever explained?
      Or maybe it was chosen because it was felt (by the Eldar, not Tolkien)
      to be from the stem *uwr-?

      So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.
      Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
      <œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them cannot provide more
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 6, 2002
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        Laurifindil wrote:

        >As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
        >"Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
        >large, great" (p. 396).
        >Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
        >up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?

        Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of
        tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them
        cannot provide more than a very vague dating. It seems to me,
        however, that the use of *UR- with the meaning "wide, large, great"
        was probably no more than a passing fancy.

        >Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
        >"large" or "fire"?

        The gloss "fire" appears in the 1930s material. I can find no
        evidence that the tengwa name ever had the meaning "wide, large,
        great".

        >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
        >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
        >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

        Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

        >So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.

        I should clarify this. I've never seen an actual example of the word
        _yanta_ in tengwar written by Tolkien. I have seen the tengwa
        _yanta_ used to represent word-initial /y/ in Q(u)enya, but only in
        other words, e.g. _Yavanna_. When I said that "the word _yanta_ was
        spelt with the tengwa _yanta_," I meant that that was the only
        possible way to spell the word in that mode at that time, even though
        I had not seen that specific word written out. I apologize for my
        poor choice of words.

        >Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
        ><œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?

        This, alas, must remain a mystery. I'm unaware of any example of the
        word _úr(e)_ written by Tolkien in tengwar.

        --
        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • laurifindil
        ... ... The andatehta (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in Quenya as well? So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 7, 2002
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          --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

          <snip>

          > >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
          > >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
          > >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?
          >
          > Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

          The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
          Quenya as well?
          So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
          I'm not mistaken.
        • Arden R. Smith
          ... Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those anomalous initials in
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 8, 2002
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            Laurifindil wrote:

            >The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
            >Quenya as well?
            >So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
            >I'm not mistaken.

            Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in
            which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those
            anomalous initials in the "alda orne" inscription.

            --
            ********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
            "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
            "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

            --Lewis Carroll,
            _Through the Looking-glass_
            ********************************************************************
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