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Re: úr >> úre

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  • laurifindil
    ... Thank you very much for your reply.
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 1, 2002
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      --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
      >
      > Laurifindil wrote:
      >
      > >Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition. Was it
      > >a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?
      >
      > Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of the
      > tengwar and their names were written before the publication of LOTR,
      > _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the manuscripts.
      > However, I am aware of a manuscript page, apparently of late date,
      > that does give the name as _úre_, and this form appears on the page
      > three times. So the introduction of _úre_ in the second edition was
      > presumably at Tolkien's request and not a typographical error.
      >

      Thank you very much for your reply.
    • laurifindil
      ... Was it ... the ... LOTR, ... manuscripts. ... date, ... page ... was ... If I may continue about uur/uure. How could the name of that letter be written in
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 3, 2002
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        --- In elfscript@y..., "laurifindil" <ejk@f...> wrote:
        > --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Laurifindil wrote:
        > >
        > > >Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition.
        Was it
        > > >a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?
        > >
        > > Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of
        the
        > > tengwar and their names were written before the publication of
        LOTR,
        > > _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the
        manuscripts.
        > > However, I am aware of a manuscript page, apparently of late
        date,
        > > that does give the name as _úre_, and this form appears on the
        page
        > > three times. So the introduction of _úre_ in the second edition
        was
        > > presumably at Tolkien's request and not a typographical error.
        > >
        >
        > Thank you very much for your reply.

        If I may continue about uur/uure.

        How could the name of that letter be written in tengwar in Q. with
        the use of the tengwa uure itself (as Tolkien writes in Appendix E it
        should be). So far, it looks as if uure was used in Q. only for the
        diphts (Nam.).
        Was uure used in another way, e.g. as a letter for glide u/w in
        the "quata sarme", as I suppose?

        But then uure does not looks as having originated from the stem *wr-
        but *ur- (Ety). Was it just an aesthetic problem then?

        Thank you again.
      • Arden R. Smith
        When viewed in relation to the familiar 1960s application of the tengwar to Quenya, the names _úr(e)_ and _yanta_ are certainly anomalous. These names are
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 3, 2002
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          When viewed in relation to the familiar 1960s application of the
          tengwar to Quenya, the names _úr(e)_ and _yanta_ are certainly
          anomalous. These names are best explained as relics.

          When _úr_ was first used as a tengwa-name (in the late 1930s, as far
          as I can tell), the tengwa to which it was applied in fact
          represented a vowel, as it does in such full modes as the Mode of
          Beleriand.

          When the name _yanta_ was given to that particular tengwa, the letter
          was used to represent /y/. Thus the word _yanta_ was spelt with the
          tengwa _yanta_ rather than with _anna_ and a subscript double-dot
          y-tehta.

          Of course, these explanations refer to the development of the tengwar
          during Tolkien's lifetime. The manuscripts don't really give any
          answers to these questions with respect to the mythological timeline.
          We have to rely on our own theories to explain why letters used for
          diphthongal off-glides were called _yanta_ and _úre_ in the Third
          Age. This is my theory:

          In the fictional history (as in the real one), the spelling _anna_ +
          y-tehta was a late addition to the Feanorian system. A hypothesis
          that _yanta_ originally represented /y/ in all positions (and _wilya_
          /w/ in all positions) is supported by the analogy of the forms of
          _yanta_:_hyarmen_::_wilya_:_hwesta_. After the introduction of the
          _anna_ + y-tehta spelling, the letter _yanta_ came to be used for the
          off-glide alone, though the old name was retained. The letter _úre_
          was then created (as a modification of _wilya_) to be its labiovelar
          counterpart.

          To explain why this letter was called _úre_, I'll go along with the
          theory that Danny mentioned:

          >I once proposed that perhaps the word/name 'úre' was originally
          >written as 'u' curl over úre, a 'uw' diphthong representing 'ú',
          >based on similar usage in the sarati.

          Danny's not the first to propose this theory. Jim Allan presented it
          in _An Introduction to Elvish_ (p. 243), but I like Danny's addition
          about the Rúmilian basis.

          --
          ********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

          --Lewis Carroll,
          _Through the Looking-glass_
          ********************************************************************
        • laurifindil
          ... can tell).As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in Etymologies from be hot and derivative _œr_ fire to *UR- wide,
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 4, 2002
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            --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

            >When _œr_ was first used as a tengwa-name (in the late 1930s, as far >as I=
            can tell).

            As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
            "Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
            large, great" (p. 396).
            Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
            up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?
            Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
            "large" or "fire"?

            > the tengwa to which it was applied in fact represented a vowel, as it >do=
            es in such full modes as the Mode of Beleriand.

            Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
            long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
            sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

            There are Q. Words which start with a short u : ulunde, usque, etc.

            Was that "discrepancy" ever explained?
            Or maybe it was chosen because it was felt (by the Eldar, not Tolkien)
            to be from the stem *uwr-?

            So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.
            Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
            <œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?
          • Arden R. Smith
            ... Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them cannot provide more
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 6, 2002
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              Laurifindil wrote:

              >As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
              >"Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
              >large, great" (p. 396).
              >Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
              >up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?

              Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of
              tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them
              cannot provide more than a very vague dating. It seems to me,
              however, that the use of *UR- with the meaning "wide, large, great"
              was probably no more than a passing fancy.

              >Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
              >"large" or "fire"?

              The gloss "fire" appears in the 1930s material. I can find no
              evidence that the tengwa name ever had the meaning "wide, large,
              great".

              >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
              >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
              >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

              Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

              >So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.

              I should clarify this. I've never seen an actual example of the word
              _yanta_ in tengwar written by Tolkien. I have seen the tengwa
              _yanta_ used to represent word-initial /y/ in Q(u)enya, but only in
              other words, e.g. _Yavanna_. When I said that "the word _yanta_ was
              spelt with the tengwa _yanta_," I meant that that was the only
              possible way to spell the word in that mode at that time, even though
              I had not seen that specific word written out. I apologize for my
              poor choice of words.

              >Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
              ><œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?

              This, alas, must remain a mystery. I'm unaware of any example of the
              word _úr(e)_ written by Tolkien in tengwar.

              --
              ********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

              --Lewis Carroll,
              _Through the Looking-glass_
              ********************************************************************
            • laurifindil
              ... ... The andatehta (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in Quenya as well? So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 7, 2002
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                --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

                <snip>

                > >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
                > >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
                > >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?
                >
                > Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

                The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
                Quenya as well?
                So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
                I'm not mistaken.
              • Arden R. Smith
                ... Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those anomalous initials in
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 8, 2002
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                  Laurifindil wrote:

                  >The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
                  >Quenya as well?
                  >So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
                  >I'm not mistaken.

                  Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in
                  which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those
                  anomalous initials in the "alda orne" inscription.

                  --
                  ********************************************************************
                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                  --Lewis Carroll,
                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                  ********************************************************************
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