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úr >> úre

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  • laurifindil
    Dear Arden Smith, Tolkien changed úr úre between LOTR 1st and second edition. Was it a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre? Namárie
    Message 1 of 9 , May 31, 2002
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      Dear Arden Smith,

      Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition. Was it
      a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?

      Namárie
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien s discussions of the tengwar and their names were written before the publication of LOTR, _úr_ is the
      Message 2 of 9 , May 31, 2002
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        Laurifindil wrote:

        >Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition. Was it
        >a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?

        Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of the
        tengwar and their names were written before the publication of LOTR,
        _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the manuscripts.
        However, I am aware of a manuscript page, apparently of late date,
        that does give the name as _úre_, and this form appears on the page
        three times. So the introduction of _úre_ in the second edition was
        presumably at Tolkien's request and not a typographical error.

        --
        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • laurifindil
        ... Thank you very much for your reply.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 1 6:16 AM
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          --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
          >
          > Laurifindil wrote:
          >
          > >Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition. Was it
          > >a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?
          >
          > Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of the
          > tengwar and their names were written before the publication of LOTR,
          > _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the manuscripts.
          > However, I am aware of a manuscript page, apparently of late date,
          > that does give the name as _úre_, and this form appears on the page
          > three times. So the introduction of _úre_ in the second edition was
          > presumably at Tolkien's request and not a typographical error.
          >

          Thank you very much for your reply.
        • laurifindil
          ... Was it ... the ... LOTR, ... manuscripts. ... date, ... page ... was ... If I may continue about uur/uure. How could the name of that letter be written in
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 3 4:00 AM
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            --- In elfscript@y..., "laurifindil" <ejk@f...> wrote:
            > --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Laurifindil wrote:
            > >
            > > >Tolkien changed úr >> úre between LOTR 1st and second edition.
            Was it
            > > >a typo, or did T. change actually the name from úr to úre?
            > >
            > > Excellent question! Since nearly all of Tolkien's discussions of
            the
            > > tengwar and their names were written before the publication of
            LOTR,
            > > _úr_ is the form that is most frequently found in the
            manuscripts.
            > > However, I am aware of a manuscript page, apparently of late
            date,
            > > that does give the name as _úre_, and this form appears on the
            page
            > > three times. So the introduction of _úre_ in the second edition
            was
            > > presumably at Tolkien's request and not a typographical error.
            > >
            >
            > Thank you very much for your reply.

            If I may continue about uur/uure.

            How could the name of that letter be written in tengwar in Q. with
            the use of the tengwa uure itself (as Tolkien writes in Appendix E it
            should be). So far, it looks as if uure was used in Q. only for the
            diphts (Nam.).
            Was uure used in another way, e.g. as a letter for glide u/w in
            the "quata sarme", as I suppose?

            But then uure does not looks as having originated from the stem *wr-
            but *ur- (Ety). Was it just an aesthetic problem then?

            Thank you again.
          • Arden R. Smith
            When viewed in relation to the familiar 1960s application of the tengwar to Quenya, the names _úr(e)_ and _yanta_ are certainly anomalous. These names are
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 3 11:58 PM
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              When viewed in relation to the familiar 1960s application of the
              tengwar to Quenya, the names _úr(e)_ and _yanta_ are certainly
              anomalous. These names are best explained as relics.

              When _úr_ was first used as a tengwa-name (in the late 1930s, as far
              as I can tell), the tengwa to which it was applied in fact
              represented a vowel, as it does in such full modes as the Mode of
              Beleriand.

              When the name _yanta_ was given to that particular tengwa, the letter
              was used to represent /y/. Thus the word _yanta_ was spelt with the
              tengwa _yanta_ rather than with _anna_ and a subscript double-dot
              y-tehta.

              Of course, these explanations refer to the development of the tengwar
              during Tolkien's lifetime. The manuscripts don't really give any
              answers to these questions with respect to the mythological timeline.
              We have to rely on our own theories to explain why letters used for
              diphthongal off-glides were called _yanta_ and _úre_ in the Third
              Age. This is my theory:

              In the fictional history (as in the real one), the spelling _anna_ +
              y-tehta was a late addition to the Feanorian system. A hypothesis
              that _yanta_ originally represented /y/ in all positions (and _wilya_
              /w/ in all positions) is supported by the analogy of the forms of
              _yanta_:_hyarmen_::_wilya_:_hwesta_. After the introduction of the
              _anna_ + y-tehta spelling, the letter _yanta_ came to be used for the
              off-glide alone, though the old name was retained. The letter _úre_
              was then created (as a modification of _wilya_) to be its labiovelar
              counterpart.

              To explain why this letter was called _úre_, I'll go along with the
              theory that Danny mentioned:

              >I once proposed that perhaps the word/name 'úre' was originally
              >written as 'u' curl over úre, a 'uw' diphthong representing 'ú',
              >based on similar usage in the sarati.

              Danny's not the first to propose this theory. Jim Allan presented it
              in _An Introduction to Elvish_ (p. 243), but I like Danny's addition
              about the Rúmilian basis.

              --
              ********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

              --Lewis Carroll,
              _Through the Looking-glass_
              ********************************************************************
            • laurifindil
              ... can tell).As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in Etymologies from be hot and derivative _œr_ fire to *UR- wide,
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 4 2:29 PM
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                --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

                >When _œr_ was first used as a tengwa-name (in the late 1930s, as far >as I=
                can tell).

                As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
                "Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
                large, great" (p. 396).
                Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
                up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?
                Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
                "large" or "fire"?

                > the tengwa to which it was applied in fact represented a vowel, as it >do=
                es in such full modes as the Mode of Beleriand.

                Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
                long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
                sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

                There are Q. Words which start with a short u : ulunde, usque, etc.

                Was that "discrepancy" ever explained?
                Or maybe it was chosen because it was felt (by the Eldar, not Tolkien)
                to be from the stem *uwr-?

                So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.
                Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
                <œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?
              • Arden R. Smith
                ... Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them cannot provide more
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 6 12:59 AM
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                  Laurifindil wrote:

                  >As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
                  >"Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
                  >large, great" (p. 396).
                  >Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
                  >up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?

                  Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of
                  tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them
                  cannot provide more than a very vague dating. It seems to me,
                  however, that the use of *UR- with the meaning "wide, large, great"
                  was probably no more than a passing fancy.

                  >Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
                  >"large" or "fire"?

                  The gloss "fire" appears in the 1930s material. I can find no
                  evidence that the tengwa name ever had the meaning "wide, large,
                  great".

                  >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
                  >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
                  >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

                  Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

                  >So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.

                  I should clarify this. I've never seen an actual example of the word
                  _yanta_ in tengwar written by Tolkien. I have seen the tengwa
                  _yanta_ used to represent word-initial /y/ in Q(u)enya, but only in
                  other words, e.g. _Yavanna_. When I said that "the word _yanta_ was
                  spelt with the tengwa _yanta_," I meant that that was the only
                  possible way to spell the word in that mode at that time, even though
                  I had not seen that specific word written out. I apologize for my
                  poor choice of words.

                  >Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
                  ><œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?

                  This, alas, must remain a mystery. I'm unaware of any example of the
                  word _úr(e)_ written by Tolkien in tengwar.

                  --
                  ********************************************************************
                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                  --Lewis Carroll,
                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                  ********************************************************************
                • laurifindil
                  ... ... The andatehta (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in Quenya as well? So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 7 10:43 AM
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                    --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...> wrote:

                    <snip>

                    > >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
                    > >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
                    > >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?
                    >
                    > Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

                    The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
                    Quenya as well?
                    So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
                    I'm not mistaken.
                  • Arden R. Smith
                    ... Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those anomalous initials in
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 8 2:14 AM
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                      Laurifindil wrote:

                      >The "andatehta" (a big accent to show long vowel) was actually used in
                      >Quenya as well?
                      >So far, not a single published text in Quenya in tengwar uses it, if
                      >I'm not mistaken.

                      Quite right, but not a single published text in Quenya uses a mode in
                      which vowels are represented by full letters, apart from those
                      anomalous initials in the "alda orne" inscription.

                      --
                      ********************************************************************
                      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                      "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                      "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                      "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                      --Lewis Carroll,
                      _Through the Looking-glass_
                      ********************************************************************
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