Re: A question about Artist & Illustrator
- Thank you again Mr. Smith for your comprehensive explanations and comments !
I wrote :
>> But *_aland_ or more probably _alanda_ could be possible as well, sincethe
>> drawing and the inscription seem to date from the late 20's.that
>> Are there any clues for a precise datation of them ? A&I speaks about the
>> preceeding drawingw that are form july and august 1928, but the drawing
>> interests us seems to have been made on a separate sheet, probably laterArden R. Smith wrote :
>> than the last drawings in the Book of Ishness.
> I can't make any judgements concerning the date of the drawing basedOK. This datation, even vague, helps us.
> on the paper or the artwork, but on the basis of the script I would
> guess that it dates from around 1930. Tengwar scripts in documents
> dated 1931 and later conform more or less to the conception of the
> Feanorian system as it is presented in published materials, whereas
> unpublished tengwar-style scripts from as late as 1929 still differ
> in significant respects.
>> Does someone know if the letter _alda_ was already in existence at thisOK.
>> stage of Tolkien's linguistics (late 20's) ? I'm most interested in the
>> languages (especially Quenya), but, alas, I'm not a specialist in the
>> scripts !
> The letter that came to be called _alda_ (whether or not it was
> called that at the time) existed in such a form with the value _ld_
> in at least one Qenya application of the tengwar by the 1930s, but
> it's impossible to say whether the drawing is earlier or later.
> Certainly the *concept* of _alda_, i.e. a single letter to represent
> the cluster _ld_ in Qenya, was in existence long before Tolkien made
> this drawing, since we find such a thing in Qenya applications of the
> Rúmilian alphabet (see R13 and R17).
> However, that doesn't mean that Tolkien would necessarily have usedOK.
> it every time he wrote Q(u)enya in tengwar. The discussion of the
> Feanorian alphabet from which the Rúmilian excerpts in R24 were
> taken presents a mode in which the letter we know as _alda_ has the
> value _ld_ and another mode in which it has the value _lh_ (or _hl_),
> and Tolkien uses *both* of these modes for the representation of
> Furthermore, it's far from certain that the letter we know as _ando_OK.
> has the value _nd_ in this inscription. This letter doesn't have the
> value _nd_ in *either* of the modes that I mentioned in the previous
>> More, _alanda_ appears indeed unglossed on p. 30 of the QL, but it ison
>> glossed "wide" on p. 34 (and so it in the "Poetic & Mythologic Words of
>> Eldarissa") and "broad, wide" on p. 51(from stem LARA, with a diacritic
>> the 'r') !You're welcome ! ;-)
> Oops. You're quite correct. As the kids say nowadays, "My bad!"
>> I am most inclined to interpret the inscription as *_alanda orne_, withthe
>> probable meaning *"wide tree", since _alda orne_ *"tree tree" would seemYes, I thought about this kind of expanation. That's why I wondered if the
>> very odd !
> Not necessarily. I can think of two scenarios in which the reading
> _alda orne_ would be perfectly normal: (1) This is a tree, and these
> are the two words used to denote this object in Qenya; (2) Which of
> these two Qenya words for "tree" should be applied to a tree of this
tree was really wide or not.
> The big question here is whether _alanda_ 'wide' still existed inYes, _alanda_ may be an alternative form of _alanda_, with duplication of
> 1930s Qenya. _Etymologies_ has _landa_ 'wide' (V:367), with which we
> may compare _I Nori Landar_ *'The Great Lands' (I:84-85, 263) and
> Goldogrin _land_, _lann_ 'broad' (PE11:52). Of course, none of this
> proves anything, since _alanda_ could have existed alongside _landa_.
the stem vowel.
>> I'd like very much to see how the tree looks like on the drawing... Canyou
>> please help, Mr. Smith ?I didn't want you to publish it (it would be non-sense !), all I wanted was
> That would of course require the permission of both the Tolkien
> Estate and the Bodleian Library, but I can give you some idea of what
> it looks like. It's similar in shape to the tree in the foreground
> of "Trolls' Hill" (_Artist & Illustrator_, fig. 99), but a bit more
> conical, with a trunk only about one third as tall. So while the
> tree isn't narrow by any means, it doesn't strike me as remarkably
> wide, either.
some clues or a description of the tree on the drawing. Thank you very much
for your help, that was what I needed !
>> To me, the fact that no point is placed under _lambe_ (nor under _ando_)in
>> the first word points also toward an interpretation of it as _alanda_ andOK.
>> not _alda_.
> This is of course a strong point in favor of _alanda_, but I should
> note that Tolkien occasionally forgot to include the subscript dot
> when writing in this fashion. See, for example, the "misspelling" of
> _Ziguur_ in line 11 of Text II of Lowdham's Old English manuscript
> (IX:321). Note also that the subscript dot is optional, as shown by
> the example of _clm_ for _calma_ in Appendix E.
> In conclusion, _alanda orne_ 'wide tree' may indeed be correct, but IOK, you're right !
> see no reason to cast aside _alda orne_.