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Re: [elfscript] nasal vowels

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  • Kassandra Velez
    ... In my Portuguese mode, I just used the over-tilde (would be over-bar with high-stemmed tengwar, but I didn t use any of those for vowels) over the vowel
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 31, 1969
      Alf Gandson wrote:
      >Hi
      >Are there other people who write French with a tehtar
      >mode which does not follow traditional spelling? Or
      >Polish, or Portuguese, or other languages with nasal
      >vowels? My question is: What solutions have you found
      >to express these nasal vowels?

      In my Portuguese mode, I just used the over-tilde (would be over-bar with high-stemmed tengwar, but I didn't use any of those for vowels) over the vowel tengwa. But then, that was a full mode (too many vowels to use tehtar well). In a tehta mode, I suppose one could, aside from modifying the tehtar, put an otherwise unused tengwa from the nasal series after the nasal vowel (a� or a�w for �, for example). (IIRC, Polish is a special case, only having two nasal vowels; these can easily be written with completely separate tehtar.)
    • Sébastien Bertho
      Aiya lambendili ar lambengolmor ! I noticed what seemed to me a typo in Artist and Illustrator by W. Hammond and C. Scull (p. 72, note 67 mentions a tree
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 23, 2002
        Aiya lambendili ar lambengolmor !

        I noticed what seemed to me a typo in "Artist and Illustrator" by W. Hammond
        and C. Scull (p. 72, note 67 mentions a tree labeled in tengwar "ald orné").

        Searching in the TolkLang archive, I found that this error has been already
        pointed by Lisa Star (in her post of the 3 Feb 1997), but I haven't been
        able to find a definitive reply. The only one I found was from Arden R.
        Smith (4 Feb 1997), but he only says that "the reading should indeed have
        been _alda orne_".

        Has the Editorial Team or someone else seen the original tengwar inscription
        or did W.. Hammond or C. Scull given a definitive reply ?

        Namárië !

        Sébastien Bertho, i estaina Lambendil Endóressë.
      • Arden R. Smith
        ... Wayne and Christina have in fact listed this correction in their Corrigenda to _J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_ in _The Tolkien Collector_ #15
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
          Sébastien Bertho wrote:

          >I noticed what seemed to me a typo in "Artist and Illustrator" by W. Hammond
          >and C. Scull (p. 72, note 67 mentions a tree labeled in tengwar "ald orné").
          >
          >Searching in the TolkLang archive, I found that this error has been already
          >pointed by Lisa Star (in her post of the 3 Feb 1997), but I haven't been
          >able to find a definitive reply. The only one I found was from Arden R.
          >Smith (4 Feb 1997), but he only says that "the reading should indeed have
          >been _alda orne_".
          >
          >Has the Editorial Team or someone else seen the original tengwar inscription
          >or did W.. Hammond or C. Scull given a definitive reply ?

          Wayne and Christina have in fact listed this correction in their
          "Corrigenda to _J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_" in _The
          Tolkien Collector_ #15 (February 1997), p. 19.

          I have seen the tengwar inscription in question, though it was not
          until after _Artist & Illustrator_ had already been published. That
          _orné_ should have been read as _orne_ is clear: the e-tehta is
          above _nuumen_ and is neither doubled nor placed above a long
          carrier. The reading of _alda_ rather than _ald_, on the other hand,
          rests entirely on a knowledge of Quenya vocabulary, since the a-tehta
          is not used at all in this inscription. The word could be read as
          _ald_, _alad_, _alada_, or _alda_, if it were not for the fact that
          the first three are not Quenya words. The inscription uses the
          letters _lambe_ and _ando_ rather than the letter _alda_, and given
          the usual Quenya value of _ando_, the word could be interpreted as
          _aland_ or _alanda_, as well. The word _alanda_ in fact appears
          (without a gloss) in the Qenya Lexicon (PE12:30), but given that the
          inscription in question is used as a caption under a drawing of a
          tree, _alda_ seems to be a more likely reading than _alanda_.
          However, I won't discount the possibility that _alanda_ *might* be
          the correct reading, meaning something like "growing," "thriving," or
          "blessed"; cf. the derivatives of GALA- in Etym. (V:357).

          I should add that the second word in the inscription cannot be
          interpreted as _orane_, since _óre_ is used instead of _rómen_, and
          especially because a dot was placed under the _óre_, indicating that
          no vowel follows the _r_. A dot was not placed under the _lambe_,
          though we should perhaps also expect one there.

          The most curious thing about this inscription is in the
          representation of the initial vowels. These are represented by full
          letters rather than by tehtar above short carriers. The initial _a_
          of _alda_ is represented by the letter _vilya_ and the initial _o_ of
          _orne_ by _úre_. These letters appear with these values in the full
          mode for English seen in inscriptions like the _Errantry_ and _Tom
          Bombadil_ calligraphy (_Pictures_ 48), but nowhere else have I seen
          vowel tengwar and vowel tehtar combined in this way.

          --
          ********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

          --Lewis Carroll,
          _Through the Looking-glass_
          ********************************************************************
        • John Cowan
          ... How odd! This is what the Indic scripts do; they have full letters for initial vowels, but represent all other vowels as diacritics of varying degrees of
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
            Arden R. Smith scripsit:

            > The most curious thing about this inscription is in the
            > representation of the initial vowels. These are represented by full
            > letters rather than by tehtar above short carriers. The initial _a_
            > of _alda_ is represented by the letter _vilya_ and the initial _o_ of
            > _orne_ by _úre_. These letters appear with these values in the full
            > mode for English seen in inscriptions like the _Errantry_ and _Tom
            > Bombadil_ calligraphy (_Pictures_ 48), but nowhere else have I seen
            > vowel tengwar and vowel tehtar combined in this way.

            How odd! This is what the Indic scripts do; they have full letters
            for initial vowels, but represent all other vowels as diacritics
            of varying degrees of complexity.

            --
            John Cowan <jcowan@...> http://www.reutershealth.com
            I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
            han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_
          • Gildor Inglorion
            Fedewan2002, this is your translation er-chorf thedad velleth viin er-chorf ven gwedhed er-chorf bronnad velleth viin ah an-uir ven gonathrad my most tentative
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002

              Fedewan2002, this is your translation

              er-chorf thedad velleth viin
              er-chorf ven gwedhed
              er-chorf bronnad velleth viin
              ah an-uir ven gonathrad

              my most tentative reconstruction is verb *theda- < *the-ta- < THE > *the-ja- > thia- for "show", i would like some more oppinions on this :)

              (also i am not sure whether men is lenited before a gerund)



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            • Michael Everson
              ... Tolkien had certainly looked at Sanskrit at some stage. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
                At 07:21 -0400 2002-04-29, John Cowan wrote:
                >Arden R. Smith scripsit:
                >
                >> The most curious thing about this inscription is in the
                >> representation of the initial vowels. These are represented by full
                >> letters rather than by tehtar above short carriers. The initial _a_
                >> of _alda_ is represented by the letter _vilya_ and the initial _o_ of
                >> _orne_ by _úre_. These letters appear with these values in the full
                >> mode for English seen in inscriptions like the _Errantry_ and _Tom
                >> Bombadil_ calligraphy (_Pictures_ 48), but nowhere else have I seen
                >> vowel tengwar and vowel tehtar combined in this way.
                >
                >How odd! This is what the Indic scripts do; they have full letters
                >for initial vowels, but represent all other vowels as diacritics
                >of varying degrees of complexity.

                Tolkien had certainly looked at Sanskrit at some stage.
                --
                Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
              • fedewan2002
                Thank you Gildor. Can you write it in elvish runes? And how can we resolve your doubts about the transcription? ... *the-ja- thia- for show , i would like
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
                  Thank you Gildor.
                  Can you write it in elvish runes?
                  And how can we resolve your doubts about the transcription?






                  --- In elfscript@y..., Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Fedewan2002, this is your translation
                  > er-chorf thedad velleth viin
                  > er-chorf ven gwedhed
                  > er-chorf bronnad velleth viin
                  > ah an-uir ven gonathrad
                  >
                  > my most tentative reconstruction is verb *theda- < *the-ta- < THE >
                  *the-ja- > thia- for "show", i would like some more oppinions on
                  this :)
                  >
                  > (also i am not sure whether men is lenited before a gerund)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > ÁðïêôÞóôå ôçí äùñåÜí óáò@... äéåýèõíóç óôï Yahoo! Mail.
                • fedewan2002
                  ... *the-ja- thia- for show , i would like some more oppinions on this :)
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
                    --- In elfscript@y..., Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Fedewan2002, this is your translation
                    > er-chorf thedad velleth viin
                    > er-chorf ven gwedhed
                    > er-chorf bronnad velleth viin
                    > ah an-uir ven gonathrad
                    >
                    > my most tentative reconstruction is verb *theda- < *the-ta- < THE >
                    *the-ja- > thia- for "show", i would like some more oppinions on
                    this :)
                    >
                    > (also i am not sure whether men is lenited before a gerund)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > ÁðïêôÞóôå ôçí äùñåÜí óáò@... äéåýèõíóç óôï Yahoo! Mail.
                  • Gildor Inglorion
                    teithant fedewan2002 ... Can you write it in elvish runes? * yes, in both runes and tengwar, and i think you want it in the latter, NOT runes ... * lets wait
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002

                      teithant fedewan2002

                      > Thank you Gildor.
                      Can you write it in elvish runes?

                      * yes, in both runes and tengwar, and i think you want it in the latter, NOT runes

                      > And how can we resolve your doubts about the transcription?

                      * lets wait for feedback :)



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                    • gildir_1
                      ... describes the tengwar inscription mentioned in AI. Thanks for the clarification! In summary, then, it appears that the inscription is: [vilya] [lambe]
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 30, 2002
                        --- In elfscript@y..., "Arden R. Smith" <erilaz@e...>
                        describes the tengwar inscription mentioned in AI.

                        Thanks for the clarification!

                        In summary, then, it appears that the inscription is:

                        [vilya] [lambe] [ando] [úre] [óre] [númen + e-tehta]

                        (Is this correct?)

                        When I write this down (in tengwar) on a piece of paper,
                        I can understand why it's easy to misread at least the
                        secord word as **_orné_ at a quick glance.

                        By the way: the originating TolkLang message (and subsequent
                        messages) refers to AI page 72 note 67. It's page 67, note 72.

                        Suilaid!
                        Gildir, Per Lindberg
                      • Arden R. Smith
                        ... Add a dot below the óre, and you ve got it. -- ******************************************************************** Arden R. Smith
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 1, 2002
                          Gildir wrote:

                          >In summary, then, it appears that the inscription is:
                          >
                          > [vilya] [lambe] [ando] [úre] [óre] [númen + e-tehta]
                          >
                          >(Is this correct?)

                          Add a dot below the óre, and you've got it.


                          --
                          ********************************************************************
                          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                          --Lewis Carroll,
                          _Through the Looking-glass_
                          ********************************************************************
                        • Sébastien Bertho
                          Aiya lambendili ! I d like to thank Mr. Arden R. Smith for his very clear and comprehensive answer to my question and for his very useful comments ! Thank s
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 11, 2002
                            Aiya lambendili !

                            I'd like to thank Mr. Arden R. Smith for his very clear and comprehensive
                            answer to my question and for his very useful comments !

                            Thank's also to John Cowan, Michael Everson and Gildir for their comments.

                            I wrote :
                            >> I noticed what seemed to me a typo in "Artist and Illustrator" by W.
                            >> Hammond and C. Scull (p. 72, note 67 mentions a tree labeled in tengwar
                            >> "ald orné").
                            >>
                            >> Searching in the TolkLang archive, I found that this error has been
                            >> already pointed by Lisa Star (in her post of the 3 Feb 1997), but I
                            >> haven't been able to find a definitive reply. The only one I found was
                            >> from Arden R. Smith (4 Feb 1997), but he only says that "the reading
                            >> should indeed have been _alda orne_".
                            >>
                            >> Has the Editorial Team or someone else seen the original tengwar
                            >> inscription or did W.. Hammond or C. Scull given a definitive reply ?

                            Arden R. Smith wrote :
                            > Wayne and Christina have in fact listed this correction in their
                            > "Corrigenda to _J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_" in _The
                            > Tolkien Collector_ #15 (February 1997), p. 19.

                            I live in France and all the interesting specialized publications are not
                            always available here, nor is it easy to be aware of this kind of
                            publications...

                            > I have seen the tengwar inscription in question, though it was not
                            > until after _Artist & Illustrator_ had already been published. That
                            > _orné_ should have been read as _orne_ is clear: the e-tehta is
                            > above _nuumen_ and is neither doubled nor placed above a long
                            > carrier. The reading of _alda_ rather than _ald_, on the other hand,
                            > rests entirely on a knowledge of Quenya vocabulary, since the a-tehta
                            > is not used at all in this inscription. The word could be read as
                            > _ald_, _alad_, _alada_, or _alda_, if it were not for the fact that
                            > the first three are not Quenya words.

                            OK.

                            > The inscription uses the letters _lambe_ and _ando_ rather than the letter
                            > _alda_, and given the usual Quenya value of _ando_, the word could be
                            > interpreted as _aland_ or _alanda_, as well. The word _alanda_ in fact
                            > appears (without a gloss) in the Qenya Lexicon (PE12:30), but given that
                            > the inscription in question is used as a caption under a drawing of a
                            > tree, _alda_ seems to be a more likely reading than _alanda_.

                            But *_aland_ or more probably _alanda_ could be possible as well, since the
                            drawing and the inscription seem to date from the late 20's.
                            Are there any clues for a precise datation of them ? A&I speaks about the
                            preceeding drawingw that are form july and august 1928, but the drawing that
                            interests us seems to have been made on a separate sheet, probably later
                            than the last drawings in the Book of Ishness.

                            Does someone know if the letter _alda_ was already in existence at this
                            stage of Tolkien's linguistics (late 20's) ? I'm most interested in the
                            languages (especially Quenya), but, alas, I'm not a specialist in the
                            scripts !

                            More, _alanda_ appears indeed unglossed on p. 30 of the QL, but it is
                            glossed "wide" on p. 34 (and so it in the "Poetic & Mythologic Words of
                            Eldarissa") and "broad, wide" on p. 51(from stem LARA, with a diacritic on
                            the 'r') !

                            > However, I won't discount the possibility that _alanda_ *might* be
                            > the correct reading, meaning something like "growing," "thriving," or
                            > "blessed"; cf. the derivatives of GALA- in Etym. (V:357).

                            I am most inclined to interpret the inscription as *_alanda orne_, with the
                            probable meaning *"wide tree", since _alda orne_ *"tree tree" would seem
                            very odd !
                            I'd like very much to see how the tree looks like on the drawing... Can you
                            please help, Mr. Smith ?

                            > I should add that the second word in the inscription cannot be
                            > interpreted as _orane_, since _óre_ is used instead of _rómen_, and
                            > especially because a dot was placed under the _óre_, indicating that
                            > no vowel follows the _r_. A dot was not placed under the _lambe_,
                            > though we should perhaps also expect one there.

                            To me, the fact that no point is placed under _lambe_ (nor under _ando_) in
                            the first word points also toward an interpretation of it as _alanda_ and
                            not _alda_.

                            > The most curious thing about this inscription is in the
                            > representation of the initial vowels. These are represented by full
                            > letters rather than by tehtar above short carriers. The initial _a_
                            > of _alda_ is represented by the letter _vilya_ and the initial _o_ of
                            > _orne_ by _úre_. These letters appear with these values in the full
                            > mode for English seen in inscriptions like the _Errantry_ and _Tom
                            > Bombadil_ calligraphy (_Pictures_ 48), but nowhere else have I seen
                            > vowel tengwar and vowel tehtar combined in this way.

                            Very interesting indeed !

                            Gildir wrote :
                            > By the way: the originating TolkLang message (and subsequent
                            > messages) refers to AI page 72 note 67. It's page 67, note 72.

                            I only have the french edition of A&I, and I wasn't sure about the page
                            number, so I gave the (erroneous) one given in Lisa Star's message on
                            TolkLang... Sorry !

                            Thank you again for your answer Mr. Smith !

                            Namárië !

                            Sébastien
                          • Alf Gandson
                            Hi Are there other people who write French with a tehtar mode which does not follow traditional spelling? Or Polish, or Portuguese, or other languages with
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 14, 2002
                              Hi
                              Are there other people who write French with a tehtar
                              mode which does not follow traditional spelling? Or
                              Polish, or Portuguese, or other languages with nasal
                              vowels? My question is: What solutions have you found
                              to express these nasal vowels?

                              I use (for French) modifications of the "regular"
                              tehtar for e, o, a and from the tehta I use to
                              represent the French eu-sound (which is actually the
                              Sindarin u-tehta): to each of these tehtar, I attach a
                              little line which is meant to be understood as derived
                              from the tehta for preceding -n- (the bar upon a
                              tengwa).

                              greetings, alf

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                            • DDanielA@webtv.net
                              ... The French tehta mode that I am most familiar with definitely does not follow traditional spelling; it is completely phonemic. In that mode, nasal vowels
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 14, 2002
                                Teithant Alf:
                                >Are there other people who write French with a tehtar mode
                                >which does not follow traditional spelling? Or Polish,
                                >or Portuguese, or other languages with nasal vowels? My
                                >question is: What solutions have you found to express these
                                >nasal vowels?

                                The French tehta mode that I am most familiar with definitely does not
                                follow traditional spelling; it is completely phonemic. In that mode,
                                nasal vowels are represent by placing the appropriate ómatehta over
                                the tengwa 'nwalme'. ('noldo' wold also be a logical choice, but in this
                                mode it is used for '-gn-' = [nj].) Ryszard Derdzinski's Polish mode
                                uses the 'a' and 'e' tehtar over the long carrier to represented the
                                nasalised versions of these vowels. I have seen about six different
                                Portuguese modes, but only two of them are tehta modes; those two handle
                                the nasal vowels the same as the French mode I spoke of before, i.e. the
                                appropriate tehtar over 'nwalme'.

                                Cuio mae, Danny.
                              • Alf Gandson
                                ... is ... I d be very intrested in your French mode as I use a phonemic one too, but don t know any other. How does the mode you mention handle the non-nasal
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 15, 2002
                                  Danny teithant:
                                  >The French tehta mode that I am most familiar with
                                  >definitely does not follow traditional spelling; it
                                  is
                                  >completely phonemic.

                                  I'd be very intrested in your French mode as I use a
                                  phonemic one too, but don't know any other. How does
                                  the mode you mention handle the non-nasal vowels?
                                  Their number, which can be up to twelve, still exeeds
                                  about two times the number of Tolkien's standard vowel
                                  tehtar.

                                  I'm not very happy with my solution (though it works).
                                  I mark the difference between the two e-sounds, the
                                  two eu-sounds and the two o-sounds by doubbling the
                                  closer versions [unhappy]. As I want to have similar
                                  tehtar doubbled, I use the Sindarin/Quenya/Westron
                                  u-curl for the French eu-sound [very unhappy]. I
                                  represent the closest vowels (i, u and ou) by a point,
                                  a little _uure_, i.e. a little circle used as tehta
                                  [unhappy] (I use the _uure_ tengwa for the u-sound in
                                  _lui_), and a tilde [very unhappy], the most opened
                                  vowels (front a and back a) by the normal and the
                                  inverted Sindarin/Quenya/Westron a-tehta. I don't
                                  write the schwa-e at all [unhappy]. I place the vowel
                                  tehtar on the preceding tengwa as all French vowels
                                  can occur at the end of a word (unlike e.g. in
                                  English).

                                  suilaid, alf

                                  =====


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                                • Arden R. Smith
                                  ... I can t make any judgements concerning the date of the drawing based on the paper or the artwork, but on the basis of the script I would guess that it
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 25, 2002
                                    Sébastien Bertho wrote:

                                    >But *_aland_ or more probably _alanda_ could be possible as well, since the
                                    >drawing and the inscription seem to date from the late 20's.
                                    >Are there any clues for a precise datation of them ? A&I speaks about the
                                    >preceeding drawingw that are form july and august 1928, but the drawing that
                                    >interests us seems to have been made on a separate sheet, probably later
                                    >than the last drawings in the Book of Ishness.

                                    I can't make any judgements concerning the date of the drawing based
                                    on the paper or the artwork, but on the basis of the script I would
                                    guess that it dates from around 1930. Tengwar scripts in documents
                                    dated 1931 and later conform more or less to the conception of the
                                    Feanorian system as it is presented in published materials, whereas
                                    unpublished tengwar-style scripts from as late as 1929 still differ
                                    in significant respects.

                                    >Does someone know if the letter _alda_ was already in existence at this
                                    >stage of Tolkien's linguistics (late 20's) ? I'm most interested in the
                                    >languages (especially Quenya), but, alas, I'm not a specialist in the
                                    >scripts !

                                    The letter that came to be called _alda_ (whether or not it was
                                    called that at the time) existed in such a form with the value _ld_
                                    in at least one Qenya application of the tengwar by the 1930s, but
                                    it's impossible to say whether the drawing is earlier or later.

                                    Certainly the *concept* of _alda_, i.e. a single letter to represent
                                    the cluster _ld_ in Qenya, was in existence long before Tolkien made
                                    this drawing, since we find such a thing in Qenya applications of the
                                    Rúmilian alphabet (see R13 and R17).

                                    However, that doesn't mean that Tolkien would necessarily have used
                                    it every time he wrote Q(u)enya in tengwar. The discussion of the
                                    Feanorian alphabet from which the Rúmilian excerpts in R24 were
                                    taken presents a mode in which the letter we know as _alda_ has the
                                    value _ld_ and another mode in which it has the value _lh_ (or _hl_),
                                    and Tolkien uses *both* of these modes for the representation of
                                    Qenya.

                                    Furthermore, it's far from certain that the letter we know as _ando_
                                    has the value _nd_ in this inscription. This letter doesn't have the
                                    value _nd_ in *either* of the modes that I mentioned in the previous
                                    paragraph.

                                    >More, _alanda_ appears indeed unglossed on p. 30 of the QL, but it is
                                    >glossed "wide" on p. 34 (and so it in the "Poetic & Mythologic Words of
                                    >Eldarissa") and "broad, wide" on p. 51(from stem LARA, with a diacritic on
                                    >the 'r') !

                                    Oops. You're quite correct. As the kids say nowadays, "My bad!"

                                    >I am most inclined to interpret the inscription as *_alanda orne_, with the
                                    >probable meaning *"wide tree", since _alda orne_ *"tree tree" would seem
                                    >very odd !

                                    Not necessarily. I can think of two scenarios in which the reading
                                    _alda orne_ would be perfectly normal: (1) This is a tree, and these
                                    are the two words used to denote this object in Qenya; (2) Which of
                                    these two Qenya words for "tree" should be applied to a tree of this
                                    kind?

                                    The big question here is whether _alanda_ 'wide' still existed in
                                    1930s Qenya. _Etymologies_ has _landa_ 'wide' (V:367), with which we
                                    may compare _I Nori Landar_ *'The Great Lands' (I:84-85, 263) and
                                    Goldogrin _land_, _lann_ 'broad' (PE11:52). Of course, none of this
                                    proves anything, since _alanda_ could have existed alongside _landa_.

                                    >I'd like very much to see how the tree looks like on the drawing... Can you
                                    >please help, Mr. Smith ?

                                    That would of course require the permission of both the Tolkien
                                    Estate and the Bodleian Library, but I can give you some idea of what
                                    it looks like. It's similar in shape to the tree in the foreground
                                    of "Trolls' Hill" (_Artist & Illustrator_, fig. 99), but a bit more
                                    conical, with a trunk only about one third as tall. So while the
                                    tree isn't narrow by any means, it doesn't strike me as remarkably
                                    wide, either.

                                    >To me, the fact that no point is placed under _lambe_ (nor under _ando_) in
                                    >the first word points also toward an interpretation of it as _alanda_ and
                                    >not _alda_.

                                    This is of course a strong point in favor of _alanda_, but I should
                                    note that Tolkien occasionally forgot to include the subscript dot
                                    when writing in this fashion. See, for example, the "misspelling" of
                                    _Ziguur_ in line 11 of Text II of Lowdham's Old English manuscript
                                    (IX:321). Note also that the subscript dot is optional, as shown by
                                    the example of _clm_ for _calma_ in Appendix E.

                                    In conclusion, _alanda orne_ 'wide tree' may indeed be correct, but I
                                    see no reason to cast aside _alda orne_.

                                    --
                                    ********************************************************************
                                    Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                                    "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                                    "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                                    "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                                    --Lewis Carroll,
                                    _Through the Looking-glass_
                                    ********************************************************************
                                  • Sébastien Bertho
                                    Thank you again Mr. Smith for your comprehensive explanations and comments ! ... the ... that ... OK. This datation, even vague, helps us. ... OK. ... OK. ...
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 26, 2002
                                      Thank you again Mr. Smith for your comprehensive explanations and comments !

                                      I wrote :
                                      >> But *_aland_ or more probably _alanda_ could be possible as well, since
                                      the
                                      >> drawing and the inscription seem to date from the late 20's.
                                      >> Are there any clues for a precise datation of them ? A&I speaks about the
                                      >> preceeding drawingw that are form july and august 1928, but the drawing
                                      that
                                      >> interests us seems to have been made on a separate sheet, probably later
                                      >> than the last drawings in the Book of Ishness.

                                      Arden R. Smith wrote :
                                      > I can't make any judgements concerning the date of the drawing based
                                      > on the paper or the artwork, but on the basis of the script I would
                                      > guess that it dates from around 1930. Tengwar scripts in documents
                                      > dated 1931 and later conform more or less to the conception of the
                                      > Feanorian system as it is presented in published materials, whereas
                                      > unpublished tengwar-style scripts from as late as 1929 still differ
                                      > in significant respects.

                                      OK. This datation, even vague, helps us.

                                      >> Does someone know if the letter _alda_ was already in existence at this
                                      >> stage of Tolkien's linguistics (late 20's) ? I'm most interested in the
                                      >> languages (especially Quenya), but, alas, I'm not a specialist in the
                                      >> scripts !

                                      > The letter that came to be called _alda_ (whether or not it was
                                      > called that at the time) existed in such a form with the value _ld_
                                      > in at least one Qenya application of the tengwar by the 1930s, but
                                      > it's impossible to say whether the drawing is earlier or later.
                                      >
                                      > Certainly the *concept* of _alda_, i.e. a single letter to represent
                                      > the cluster _ld_ in Qenya, was in existence long before Tolkien made
                                      > this drawing, since we find such a thing in Qenya applications of the
                                      > Rúmilian alphabet (see R13 and R17).

                                      OK.

                                      > However, that doesn't mean that Tolkien would necessarily have used
                                      > it every time he wrote Q(u)enya in tengwar. The discussion of the
                                      > Feanorian alphabet from which the Rúmilian excerpts in R24 were
                                      > taken presents a mode in which the letter we know as _alda_ has the
                                      > value _ld_ and another mode in which it has the value _lh_ (or _hl_),
                                      > and Tolkien uses *both* of these modes for the representation of
                                      > Qenya.

                                      OK.

                                      > Furthermore, it's far from certain that the letter we know as _ando_
                                      > has the value _nd_ in this inscription. This letter doesn't have the
                                      > value _nd_ in *either* of the modes that I mentioned in the previous
                                      > paragraph.

                                      OK.

                                      >> More, _alanda_ appears indeed unglossed on p. 30 of the QL, but it is
                                      >> glossed "wide" on p. 34 (and so it in the "Poetic & Mythologic Words of
                                      >> Eldarissa") and "broad, wide" on p. 51(from stem LARA, with a diacritic
                                      on
                                      >> the 'r') !

                                      > Oops. You're quite correct. As the kids say nowadays, "My bad!"

                                      You're welcome ! ;-)

                                      >> I am most inclined to interpret the inscription as *_alanda orne_, with
                                      the
                                      >> probable meaning *"wide tree", since _alda orne_ *"tree tree" would seem
                                      >> very odd !

                                      > Not necessarily. I can think of two scenarios in which the reading
                                      > _alda orne_ would be perfectly normal: (1) This is a tree, and these
                                      > are the two words used to denote this object in Qenya; (2) Which of
                                      > these two Qenya words for "tree" should be applied to a tree of this
                                      > kind?

                                      Yes, I thought about this kind of expanation. That's why I wondered if the
                                      tree was really wide or not.

                                      > The big question here is whether _alanda_ 'wide' still existed in
                                      > 1930s Qenya. _Etymologies_ has _landa_ 'wide' (V:367), with which we
                                      > may compare _I Nori Landar_ *'The Great Lands' (I:84-85, 263) and
                                      > Goldogrin _land_, _lann_ 'broad' (PE11:52). Of course, none of this
                                      > proves anything, since _alanda_ could have existed alongside _landa_.

                                      Yes, _alanda_ may be an alternative form of _alanda_, with duplication of
                                      the stem vowel.

                                      >> I'd like very much to see how the tree looks like on the drawing... Can
                                      you
                                      >> please help, Mr. Smith ?

                                      > That would of course require the permission of both the Tolkien
                                      > Estate and the Bodleian Library, but I can give you some idea of what
                                      > it looks like. It's similar in shape to the tree in the foreground
                                      > of "Trolls' Hill" (_Artist & Illustrator_, fig. 99), but a bit more
                                      > conical, with a trunk only about one third as tall. So while the
                                      > tree isn't narrow by any means, it doesn't strike me as remarkably
                                      > wide, either.

                                      I didn't want you to publish it (it would be non-sense !), all I wanted was
                                      some clues or a description of the tree on the drawing. Thank you very much
                                      for your help, that was what I needed !

                                      >> To me, the fact that no point is placed under _lambe_ (nor under _ando_)
                                      in
                                      >> the first word points also toward an interpretation of it as _alanda_ and
                                      >> not _alda_.

                                      > This is of course a strong point in favor of _alanda_, but I should
                                      > note that Tolkien occasionally forgot to include the subscript dot
                                      > when writing in this fashion. See, for example, the "misspelling" of
                                      > _Ziguur_ in line 11 of Text II of Lowdham's Old English manuscript
                                      > (IX:321). Note also that the subscript dot is optional, as shown by
                                      > the example of _clm_ for _calma_ in Appendix E.

                                      OK.

                                      > In conclusion, _alanda orne_ 'wide tree' may indeed be correct, but I
                                      > see no reason to cast aside _alda orne_.

                                      OK, you're right !
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