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Re: [elfscript] Quick Question

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    ... Quite right: I m afraid my ad-hoc phonemic analyze was much to hasty, as Fangorn would have said. ... I see. The description of /m/ as a nasal stop seems
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 23, 2000
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      Arden R. Smith wrote:

      > Måns Björkman writes:
      >
      > >The sign
      > >referred to is a curious character used in the so-called _King's Letter_
      > >(DTS 45, 48, 49) for indicating a labialized /m/ which had become /v/ in
      > >Third Age Sindarin
      >
      > Don't you mean "spirantized /m/" or something similar? /m/ is labial by
      > definition.

      Quite right: I'm afraid my ad-hoc phonemic analyze was much to hasty, as
      Fangorn would have said.


      > >(Daniel's description contains a small error that I
      > >hadn't noticed before, BTW: /m/ is a nasal, not a stop).
      >
      > Yes, /m/ is a nasal, but so is the sound represented by <mh>, more or less;
      > Tolkien describes the sound as "spirant _m_ (or nasal _v_) in his
      > discussion of the Cirth in Appendix E. The m/mh distinction is between a
      > nasal stop (a term that is indeed used in some linguistic textbooks) and a
      > nasal (or at least nasalized) fricative. Such a distinction is not usually
      > made, hence the normal use of the generic "nasal".

      I see. The description of /m/ as a "nasal stop" seems rather odd,
      though. I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
      /m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
      fricative /v/.


      Yrs,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden An þer."
    • erilaz@earthlink.net
      ... Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of Spanish
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 23, 2000
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        Måns Björkman wrote:

        >I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
        >/m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
        >fricative /v/.

        Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a
        voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of
        Spanish _saber_ 'to know' demonstrates.


        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • Mans Bjorkman
        ... So the significant trait of the lenition is actually the adding of friction, later followed by loss of the nasal quality? Well, you learn something new
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 25, 2000
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          Arden Smith wrote:
          >
          > Måns Björkman wrote:
          >
          > >I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
          > >/m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
          > >fricative /v/.
          >
          > Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a
          > voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of
          > Spanish _saber_ 'to know' demonstrates.

          So the significant trait of the lenition is actually the adding of
          friction, later followed by loss of the nasal quality? Well, you learn
          something new every day!

          I hope Stephen Ross feels his "quick question" is anwered by now. :)

          Yrs,
          Måns

          --
          Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
          Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
          SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
          Sweden An þer."
        • Stephen Ross
          well yes, yes I do! Thanks guys... Although being a biolgist rather than a liguist, I have NO clue what ya ll just decided... hee hee I m sure it was
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 25, 2000
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            well yes, yes I do! Thanks guys... Although being a biolgist rather than a
            liguist, I have NO clue what ya'll just decided... hee hee I'm sure it was
            important though!

            Got another question, if you don't mind. How much punctuation was actually
            used? I've seen the various title pages, and there wasn't much used at all.
            Hard to tell if there is even a space between words sometimes. Are there
            spaces between words? And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
            font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
            mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised? Just
            curious...

            Thanks!

            Stephen
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          • erilaz@earthlink.net
            ... There can be, but they re not required. There aren t any on the _LotR_ title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and in the
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 26, 2000
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              Stephen Ross wrote:

              >Are there
              >spaces between words?

              There can be, but they're not required. There aren't any on the _LotR_
              title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and
              in the texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_.

              >And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
              >font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
              >mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised?

              They're legit. See especially the tengwar texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_
              and _Sauron Defeated_ for examples.


              ********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

              --Lewis Carroll,
              _Through the Looking-glass_
              ********************************************************************
            • Mans Bjorkman
              ... I actually think there are spaces in the title page inscription. True, many words seem to have no spaces between them, but in other places there can be no
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 29, 2000
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                Arden Smith wrote:

                > Stephen Ross wrote:
                >
                > >Are there
                > >spaces between words?
                >
                > There can be, but they're not required. There aren't any on the _LotR_
                > title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and
                > in the texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_.

                I actually think there are spaces in the title page inscription. True,
                many words seem to have no spaces between them, but in other places
                there can be no doubt there are spaces, e.g. around the word "ring". The
                ring inscription does without spaces, though. Perhaps lack of spaces is
                one of the qualities that made the mode of this inscription "ancient".


                > >And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
                > >font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
                > >mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised?
                >
                > They're legit. See especially the tengwar texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_
                > and _Sauron Defeated_ for examples.

                The "roman" punctuation found in Dan Smith's fonts was used by Tolkien
                only for inscriptions in English, and primarily in early ones, probably
                before he had figured out what punctuation the Elves actually used.


                Yrs,
                Måns


                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden An þer."
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