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Re: Tengwar modes used in Third Age Middle-earth

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  • psalm19us
    ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 10 12:34 PM
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      --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Teithant psalm19us:
      >
      > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
      >
      > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
      information in his
      > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
      expound a bit
      > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
      >
      > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
      > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
      tehta
      > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
      >
      > Probably more than two.
      >
      > >I have read that
      > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
      > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
      > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
      >
      > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
      the Mode
      > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
      the Mode
      > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
      and the
      > Grey Havens.

      So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
      Northern mode?


      > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
      >
      > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
      The tehta
      > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
      Dúnedain of
      > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
      Lothlórien might
      > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
      probably
      > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.

      Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion you for your input!
      This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
      Wood-elven tehta mode?
      There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
      the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
      mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
      form would follow more closely? I would guess the mode of Beleriand.

      If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
      the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
      then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
      with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
      reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
      and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
      learn more about this!

      > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
      > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
      > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
      form
      > >of Gondor?
      >
      > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
      Gondorians
      > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
      of
      > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
      (possibly
      > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
      read it
      > more easily.
      > >
      > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
      > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
      >
      > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
      the English
      > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
      represent the
      > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
      translation.
      > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
      Northern
      > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
      mode. The
      > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
      (runes).
      >
      > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
      >
      > Cuio mae, Danny.
      >

      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
      http://messenger.msn.com
    • psalm19us
      ... information in his ... expound a bit ... tehta ... the Mode ... the Mode ... and the ... Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding! So was this
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 10 12:55 PM
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        --- In elfscript@y..., "Danny Andriës" <tegilbor@h...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Teithant psalm19us:
        >
        > >I have a question about Tengwar as it was used in Tolkien's world.
        >
        > Gildor has given some good answers (and you can find more
        information in his
        > excellent essay on the Gwaith-i-Phethdain website), but I can
        expound a bit
        > with my own theories. CAUTION: Note the word THEORIES!
        >
        > >From what I can determine there were two predominant modes for
        > >Sindarin in the Third Age – The Mode of Beleriand and the vowel
        tehta
        > >mode (I don't know a better name for that one yet.)
        >
        > Probably more than two.
        >
        > >I have read that
        > >the Mode of Beleriand is considered the mode that would have been
        > >used in Rivendell in the Third Age. So wouldn't that mode then have
        > >been used by the other Elves of Middle-earth also
        >
        > I think the full-writing modes (not just for Sindarin, and not just
        the Mode
        > of Beleriand) were used in the Northern parts of Middle Earth, so
        the Mode
        > of Beleriand would have been used by the Elves of Rivendell, Hollin
        and the
        > Grey Havens.


        Thanks to you and Gildor Inglorion for responding!
        So was this full writing mode of Arnor the one referred to as the
        Northern mode?



        > >Or would they likely have used the other mode?
        >
        > I doubt that Elves would have used the mode you're referring to.
        The tehta
        > mode we have attested is more likely a Mannish mode used by the
        Dúnedain of
        > Arnor to write Sindarin. I think the Elves of Mirkwood and
        Lothlórien might
        > have used a tehta mode that differed in one significant detail: it
        probably
        > used Series III for the velars rather than Series IV.


        This is very, very interesting! What evidence do we have of this
        Wood-elven tehta mode?
        There are several other differences between the Gondorian mode and
        the mode of Beleriand besides the Series III/Series IV difference you
        mentioned. Is there any information as to which mode the wood-elven
        form would follow more closely?

        If full writing modes were favored in the North, it seems odd that
        the Elves of Mirkwood would choose to utilize a vowel tehta mode. But
        then, the leaders of both Mirkwood and Lórien were somewhat at odds
        with the Noldor and might have chosen something different for that
        reason - however the tehta modes harkened back to the Quenya mode,
        and it seems unlikely they would go that direction. I would like to
        learn more about this!




        > >Was the vowel tehta mode associated with Gondor? Aragorn uses that
        > >or a similar mode in the King's letter, and as he was educated in
        > >Rivendell I wondered if that mode represented an Elven form or a
        form
        > >of Gondor?
        >
        > The tehta mode used in KLIII was probably a mannish mode used by
        Gondorians
        > for Sindarin. Tolkien suggests indirectly in App. E that the people
        of
        > Gondor used a tehta mode. KL I and II used a full-writing mode
        (possibly
        > originating in Arnor?), probably so that Sam and his family could
        read it
        > more easily.
        > >
        > >As Westron was the Common Tongue at that time in Middle-earth, what
        > >form of writing was used in general for Westron?
        >
        > In the Shire, probably tengwar of the full-writing mode used for
        the English
        > portion of the King's Letter, considering this was meant to
        represent the
        > Westron translation. Remember that Elanor could read the
        translation.
        > Full-writing because the Shire is in the north. Ditto among the
        Northern
        > Rangers. As mentioned above, those in Gondor probably used a tehta
        mode. The
        > Rohirrim and the men of Dale used a simple version of the cirth
        (runes).
        >
        > These are just my thoughts ... some will doubtlessly disagree!
        >
        > Cuio mae, Danny.



        I had some trouble trying to post - hope I didn't post this twice. :)


        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
        http://messenger.msn.com
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