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Re: [elfscript] Quick Question

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  • Lisa Star
    ... **I haven t read Dan Smith s explanation in a long time, but I think that you have misinterpreted part of what he wrote. **The way that the tengwar
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 22, 2000
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      >From: "Stephen Ross" <Monkeyboy007@...>
      >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:49:41 -0000
      >
      >I just recently started writing in tengwar, and I'm totally
      >fascinated by it. But I haven't been able to find a whole lot of
      >information on some of its finer points. I downloaded Dan Smith's
      >fonts, which are amazing btw, and the help file he wrote to go with
      >them.

      **I haven 't read Dan Smith's explanation in a long time, but I think that
      you have misinterpreted part of what he wrote.

      **The way that the tengwar indicate the aspirate is by extended the telco or
      stem both up and down. Examples appear in the ring inscription in the first
      volume. This sound is found in the Black Speech, but doesn't occur in
      English, Quenya or Sindarin. The extension of the stem is not really curly
      except in so far as the letters are formed gracefully. It is also quite
      close to vertical.

      **One of the small, more or less horizontal curls which indicate following s
      appear in the word hobbits, the last word in the inscription on the title
      page (as you saw).

      ** Lisa Star
      ** LisaStar@...

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    • erilaz@earthlink.net
      ... Don t you mean spirantized /m/ or something similar? /m/ is labial by definition. ... Yes, /m/ is a nasal, but so is the sound represented by , more
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 22, 2000
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        Måns Björkman writes:

        >The sign
        >referred to is a curious character used in the so-called _King's Letter_
        >(DTS 45, 48, 49) for indicating a labialized /m/ which had become /v/ in
        >Third Age Sindarin

        Don't you mean "spirantized /m/" or something similar? /m/ is labial by
        definition.

        >(Daniel's description contains a small error that I
        >hadn't noticed before, BTW: /m/ is a nasal, not a stop).

        Yes, /m/ is a nasal, but so is the sound represented by <mh>, more or less;
        Tolkien describes the sound as "spirant _m_ (or nasal _v_) in his
        discussion of the Cirth in Appendix E. The m/mh distinction is between a
        nasal stop (a term that is indeed used in some linguistic textbooks) and a
        nasal (or at least nasalized) fricative. Such a distinction is not usually
        made, hence the normal use of the generic "nasal".

        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
      • Mans Bjorkman
        ... Quite right: I m afraid my ad-hoc phonemic analyze was much to hasty, as Fangorn would have said. ... I see. The description of /m/ as a nasal stop seems
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 23, 2000
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          Arden R. Smith wrote:

          > Måns Björkman writes:
          >
          > >The sign
          > >referred to is a curious character used in the so-called _King's Letter_
          > >(DTS 45, 48, 49) for indicating a labialized /m/ which had become /v/ in
          > >Third Age Sindarin
          >
          > Don't you mean "spirantized /m/" or something similar? /m/ is labial by
          > definition.

          Quite right: I'm afraid my ad-hoc phonemic analyze was much to hasty, as
          Fangorn would have said.


          > >(Daniel's description contains a small error that I
          > >hadn't noticed before, BTW: /m/ is a nasal, not a stop).
          >
          > Yes, /m/ is a nasal, but so is the sound represented by <mh>, more or less;
          > Tolkien describes the sound as "spirant _m_ (or nasal _v_) in his
          > discussion of the Cirth in Appendix E. The m/mh distinction is between a
          > nasal stop (a term that is indeed used in some linguistic textbooks) and a
          > nasal (or at least nasalized) fricative. Such a distinction is not usually
          > made, hence the normal use of the generic "nasal".

          I see. The description of /m/ as a "nasal stop" seems rather odd,
          though. I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
          /m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
          fricative /v/.


          Yrs,
          Måns


          --
          Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
          Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
          SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
          Sweden An þer."
        • erilaz@earthlink.net
          ... Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of Spanish
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 23, 2000
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            Måns Björkman wrote:

            >I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
            >/m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
            >fricative /v/.

            Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a
            voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of
            Spanish _saber_ 'to know' demonstrates.


            ********************************************************************
            Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

            "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
            "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
            "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

            --Lewis Carroll,
            _Through the Looking-glass_
            ********************************************************************
          • Mans Bjorkman
            ... So the significant trait of the lenition is actually the adding of friction, later followed by loss of the nasal quality? Well, you learn something new
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 25, 2000
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              Arden Smith wrote:
              >
              > Måns Björkman wrote:
              >
              > >I always pictured the distinction as between a bilabial nasal
              > >/m/ and a bilabial fricative /mh/, which then turned into a labio-dental
              > >fricative /v/.
              >
              > Certainly the shift from bilabial to labiodental is part of it, but a
              > voiced bilabial fricative need not be nasalized, as the medial consonant of
              > Spanish _saber_ 'to know' demonstrates.

              So the significant trait of the lenition is actually the adding of
              friction, later followed by loss of the nasal quality? Well, you learn
              something new every day!

              I hope Stephen Ross feels his "quick question" is anwered by now. :)

              Yrs,
              Måns

              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden An þer."
            • Stephen Ross
              well yes, yes I do! Thanks guys... Although being a biolgist rather than a liguist, I have NO clue what ya ll just decided... hee hee I m sure it was
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 25, 2000
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                well yes, yes I do! Thanks guys... Although being a biolgist rather than a
                liguist, I have NO clue what ya'll just decided... hee hee I'm sure it was
                important though!

                Got another question, if you don't mind. How much punctuation was actually
                used? I've seen the various title pages, and there wasn't much used at all.
                Hard to tell if there is even a space between words sometimes. Are there
                spaces between words? And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
                font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
                mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised? Just
                curious...

                Thanks!

                Stephen
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              • erilaz@earthlink.net
                ... There can be, but they re not required. There aren t any on the _LotR_ title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and in the
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 26, 2000
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                  Stephen Ross wrote:

                  >Are there
                  >spaces between words?

                  There can be, but they're not required. There aren't any on the _LotR_
                  title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and
                  in the texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_.

                  >And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
                  >font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
                  >mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised?

                  They're legit. See especially the tengwar texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_
                  and _Sauron Defeated_ for examples.


                  ********************************************************************
                  Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                  "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
                  "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
                  "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

                  --Lewis Carroll,
                  _Through the Looking-glass_
                  ********************************************************************
                • Mans Bjorkman
                  ... I actually think there are spaces in the title page inscription. True, many words seem to have no spaces between them, but in other places there can be no
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 29, 2000
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                    Arden Smith wrote:

                    > Stephen Ross wrote:
                    >
                    > >Are there
                    > >spaces between words?
                    >
                    > There can be, but they're not required. There aren't any on the _LotR_
                    > title page or in the Ring-inscription, but there are on the Moria Gate and
                    > in the texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_.

                    I actually think there are spaces in the title page inscription. True,
                    many words seem to have no spaces between them, but in other places
                    there can be no doubt there are spaces, e.g. around the word "ring". The
                    ring inscription does without spaces, though. Perhaps lack of spaces is
                    one of the qualities that made the mode of this inscription "ancient".


                    > >And what about other punctuation? Dan's excellent
                    > >font includes a lot of characters that are labelled various things, question
                    > >mark, exclamation point, etc, but are those "authentic" or surmised?
                    >
                    > They're legit. See especially the tengwar texts in _The Road Goes Ever On_
                    > and _Sauron Defeated_ for examples.

                    The "roman" punctuation found in Dan Smith's fonts was used by Tolkien
                    only for inscriptions in English, and primarily in early ones, probably
                    before he had figured out what punctuation the Elves actually used.


                    Yrs,
                    Måns


                    --
                    Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                    Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                    SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                    Sweden An þer."
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